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Q: How many years did you work as a teacher?
A: Six years...no eight years.
Q: And as a principal?
Q: Describe your school that you were a principal of.
A: I was the principal of two different schools. The first school I was principal of was the effective learning center...it was called the Individualized Learning Center. It was a public school...it was especially for emotionally disturbed and learning disabled children and the uh next assignment was in the primary field...Simonsdale Elementary and it had grades K through 2. The enrollment in the special learning center ran about 112 and the enrollment at Simonsdale ran about 450-500.
Q: Could you describe the building...how it looked when you came through the front door?
A: Well at the learning center it was a two-story brick building. It was an old building that had been in the school system for many years in downtown. It was an old facility but it was comfortable and very big. It had many classrooms. The more individualized instruction took space and we had a lot of extra rooms we could use for special groups. The elementary school was an old building too, but it was on another scale. It was in a suburban environment. We were on a curve of a street and very few houses close by and it was a very secluded place.
Q: Are either of the buildings still standing?
A: Both of the buildings are still standing. The effective center was disbanded. When the State had to ensure the special ed child was educated in the least restricted environment the children were moved into the regular elementary schools. This became the end of the Individualized Learning Center. So the building is still there and they have not put it to use yet but I am sure that they soon will. The elementary school is functioning very well.
Q: Why did you become a principal?
A: Well initially I sort of just happened into it. I was a speech sort of a reading therapist just prior to taking the job at the effective center. And it was a new...and I was just interested in learning disability and it sort of took hold of the State and people were interested in learning disabilities and I was asked to be first the Assistant Principal and then the principal and so it just evolved and in fact I didn't expect to become an administrator and so I hadn't taken the classes to be endorsed in administration until after I became a principal.
Q: You said that the field of learning disabilities took hold of the nation. What was the time frame you are talking about?
A: Well it was the early seventies.
Q: What was your school's philosophy? And how was it developed?
A: I don't know how to say it very precisely. I think the school philosophy at the learning center was to try and meet each child's needs. Each child has been tested and diagnosed prior to being sent to the center and our objective was to help that child learn and whatever methods we had to use to get that child to learn that is what we would do. Of course the learning disabled children...(garbled). The philosophy of the regular elementary school was the same, too; to have each child work at his maximum to take care of the child in every way to help with his well being and of course to help with his education. There are so many...when you talk about philosophy there are so many directives and...(garble)...and various studies to think about...but the philosophy ought to be to get the best education.
Q: What made you switch from the Individualized Learning Center to the regular elementary school?
A: Well I had been in special ed for many years and I needed a change.
Q: How did you create a climate for learning? What leadership techniques did you use? What techniques were successful and unsuccessful?
A: The climate...I tried to make the children comfortable and to have confidence in themselves and to try to have it so that they would not be afraid to make mistakes and to get them to work their way through problems on their own knowing that the teachers are there for any help.
Q: Is this true of both types of schools?
A: Yes, especially the second grade children. It had to be a relaxed atmosphere although structured but the atmosphere had to be a lot more structured in the learning center in that we helped the children more and had to be a part of the planning so that the children would know what would happen when and of course the elementary children were in on the planning too but they could take some surprises every now and then. The whole school system works I think to have children happy in their environment. Happy and relaxed because they definitely can't learn when they are tense and worried. And besides happy see that they get a good meal. When they come in if they didn't get breakfast see that they get one. (garble)
Q: What leadership techniques did you use?
A: The teachers were encouraged to work with their own special classes to know the needs of the children and to work with them. They were encouraged to talk over any problems with the principal--she was available at certain times of every day. It think it is a needed thing for people to get together and share ideas. I think the principal tells the teachers what to do and they add their own ideas and they talk it over and they decide what to teach. What the leadership style was to show respect for the teachers, work with the teachers. I think we gained a lot from our own in-house sponsored meetings. We talked together about our problems (garble) and shared ideas.
Q: What techniques were successful and unsuccessful?
A: Well problems often times were assigned to committees to work through and then come back to the larger group with their ideas. I think involvement or working with them through committees is good. I don't know of any that are down right unsuccessful but I'm sure there are some that aren't as successful. But I do know that all along the line that we kept working with each other and that we had a respect for each other (garble)...that everyone especially the new teachers the feelings that we are there to help the children--that we are not there just to collect a paycheck (laughter) but we are there to service people. (garble)
Q: What do you think teachers expect principals to be?
A: I think they do expect us to be instructional leaders. I think they do expect us to know the curriculum of all the program and they expect us to be someone to whom they can turn and get an answer...(garble). I think the teachers definitely feel that they have someplace to take their problems and questions to and someplace that the parents can be sent...(garble)...and I think that the teachers need some of the time a place to send these parents. The teacher expects the principal to evaluate her. I'm talking about all females (laughter) so she is expected to be somewhat of an authority on these things. (garble) They do need a friend too not a buddy friend but a friend that they can come to and talk to. (garble)
Q: What is your philosophy of education? What is your philosophy of teaching? What is your personal leadership philosophy?
A: Philosophy of education--well I think first we have to follow the State curriculum but we must be able to teach the child to be independent...an independent reader, independent speller, and so forth and so on to challenge them, to enrich them by reading to them. If you have a child that is bright and inquisitive that we must respond to him with enriching materials...to help him grow and develop...that if you don't move him along...that children don't move along on the same track and if we must look at individual differences and that is one reason why...(garble).
Q: Would that lead to your philosophy of teaching?
A: Philosophy of teaching I think that the teacher is very, very important person in the lives of every child...and if anything is so very important it is that we act and talk and listen...that we set the role model and that especially the little children...(garble)...and now that I'm a grandmother I can see these things more clearly and they are very important.
Q: What is your personal leadership philosophy?
A: That the leadership style encompass cooperation, working together...(garble)...that working together whether it be in in service, whether we are learning together or whether we are solving bussing problems or whatever it is that the teacher must have all of these people working with her or she couldn't do it. The autocratic, authoritarian person is someone from the dark ages but nowadays we must work together.
Q: What does it take to be an effective principal?
A: I think it takes a liking for people and an ability to get along with people--not to become subservient to them or lose your dignity to them or anything like that but to relate to them--to be able to listen to them and what their problems are or the things that they bring to you. I think you do have to listen to them...(garble)...you need to have a good sense of humor and an ability not to let things bug you (laugh) or get under your skin that you can put away some of your hurts and disagreements.
Q: What pressures did you face as a principal? How did you handle them?
A: Well I think the greatest pressure was time--that you would set your priorities and I remember going into my office some mornings and the children had gone to their rooms and the teachers were working--I would sit there and think what am I going to do today...what would I do first and sometimes I would even make lists of things I must do and things I want to do--and there is a pressure for possibly demands on your time for reports that are due at a certain time--a secretary, a good secretary, can be invaluable for these things and for answering the phones, giving you messages so they won't interrupt you...(garble)...she can do a number of the reports. (garble) And the pressure of the many obligations--you just have to be thorough and...(garble)...and just go on and do what you have to do and to remember always that the leadership is the main reason for you being there. You are there to see that each child is at least as possible is receiving the kind of education he should have. And that the teachers are doing their jobs and that the whole school is working...(garble)...sometimes you wonder if...
Q: If you had it to do again, what would you do to better prepare yourself for the principalship?
A: Well probably I would take the classes you are supposed to take in administration prior to becoming a principal. In some cases it wasn't so bad because I was already working in that area that the classes were covering and that made it a little easier for me. I think that being in the system partly in my particular situation...(garble) Q: How did you handle teacher grievances? Did you ever fire a teacher? Discuss the issues.
Q: How can we improve education, teachers, etc?
A: I think that talking now about how many years that the teachers would not only dwell on the methodology of the classes but the content of a subject area.
Q: How did you handle the civil rights issue, the busing issues, etc.?
A: We didn't really have any civil rights problems. (Garble)
Q: How about the main streaming issue?
A: No that became an issue later. (Garble)
Q: What procedures should be used before a person is selected to become a principal?
A: Well, I was never in it but I think it was a good idea...anyone who was hired as a principal of course had to do the coursework but then the person would go to a certain school and they would be given questions to answer and most of the people who did the testing were active principals and they would ask them questions like what would you do if you were a principal and this happened...(garble)...you have to keep track of money, of inventories, of supplies, and it is just like a small business. You have to be able to perform these various activities and then the testers would write up a report and then the next day you would come in and hear the results of the report of how you had done...an evaluation...and it was a good thing to have go on your record if you did apply for a principalship the test results were already there and supporting you. When I became a principal I didn't go through any of that. I was recommended by the Director and the question came back would you like to be the principal.
Q: How did you handle assistant principals?
A: Well, we were a partnership and we together came up with an assignment of responsibilities and we share those responsibilities. Her responsibilities were to keep track of the textbooks--we just had to do that because the reports had to be sent down to the School Board and we just had to do that activity and uh that is just what we did...we divided who was going to do what...(garble).... The principal did have to work up an evaluation for the assistant principal. A principal never gets out of evaluating people (laugh).
Q: As a principal, what was your biggest concern?
A: My biggest concern was that we were taking care of the children and their instructional needs and that they were getting what they needed at the one level to prepare them for the next level--that we were doing our very best to see that children learned and that the environment was good and the climate was good in terms of being a happy place and providing a place that they could learn...(garble)...and that the children if they needed special needs that it was provided.
Q: Did you do social promotions?
A: We did not social promote.
Q: What was your biggest headache?
A: Having enough time to get everything done (laugh). I was fortunate to be in situations where I had good faculty and good office personnel and good cafeteria workers and good custodians. Not everyone but good people.
Q: What do you think of career ladders for teachers, what about merit pay?
A: I think merit pay is just impossible--I love the concept...I'm getting hoarse Marcia (laugh)...the concept is beautiful but I will never forget what one principal said to me...if we were to have merit pay and I recommend certain ones for merit pay I'm liable to get shot going out to the parking lot and that is about how terrible it might be if only certain teachers get more money. Money is very important to these hard working people and all kinds of jealousies and not to mention that every parent would want the teacher who is on this merit pay list (laugh) and it would be impossible to do that. It is hard enough for principals...uh...if there is a very popular teacher for instance in the third grade...every parent wants to have that teacher for her child and it is hard enough to work with that kind of situation but to define a teacher as a merit pay teacher--boy--and how can you defend your assignment of teachers. I think they do deserve some kind of reward and I think that if they do a good job then they become a grade level leader and she has certain responsibilities and gets a little extra money for that...however the elementary grade level teacher does not get as much pay as the secondary department level leaders which might seem unfair but it is unfortunate that it is this way but in many ways...(garble).
Q: What about career ladders?
A: There is some discussion about that after they have a certain number of years they get a certain salary. I think this is good.
Q: What do you think of the Standards of Quality established by the State School Board?
A: I think they are fine objectives but they need to finance them. That is all I'll say--they need to finance them.
Q: What are the characteristics associated with effective schools?
A: An effective school is one in which the children are learning at the rate expected and so the characteristics would be that it is a place where instruction is the most important thing--that is why the school is there, it is for instruction. It's main objective is to make the instruction the best it can be and that the school is a safe place so that it can be an effective learning environment for the children. And that the staff...that the staff and faculty are well trained and conscientious in carrying out their obligations to the student body.
Q: What do you think of the testing procedures such as SAT etc.
A: I think they are good. In my situation at the Learning Center testing is more or less individual--that is the element of the Center individual as opposed to group testing. In the regular school--I think it gives one a good overview of what is happening in the school. You have to read the test results with a grain of salt and I certainly don't think that one should look at the test results from one certain second grade room and say that is not a good teacher because the results are not as high (Chuckle) as in another second grade room. I do think it gives one a good overview of what's happening. I think it can be a warning in some cases that you are not teaching uh that the children are not learning what is expected. I think it is a good thing to have standardized tests. Now as far as the upper levels where the SAT has been so far I think it has been a...
Q: I was just getting ready to say that in the elementary level you probably don't deal with SAT since that is geared for people getting ready to go on to college.
Q: What other standardized tests do you deal with on the elementary level?
A: Well the SRA is the first one that they hid but we have the Metropolitan Readiness Test down in the Kindergarten. Of course we have many system-wide tests we give our children in the lower grades. For instance in math there is a system-wide test given at each grade level. And for most language arts there is a test that comes from the, for instance, reading publishers.
Q: Did the math test come from the math book publishers?
A: No that is made up by our math specialists. In fact in the early grades they don't have math textbooks here in Portsmouth.
Q: What does SRA stand for?
A: Science Research Association (chuckle) or something.
Q: Is that given at all grade levels?
A: The fourth and sometimes the sixth and eighth. I think they gave it at the sixth grade level in this system last year.
Q: What does that test assess?
A: Achievement. And then they have an accompanying part that they judge ability from that and they can tell it they are achieving according to ability.
Q: What was the toughest decision you had to make as a principal and why was it difficult?
A: Now that will take some thinking Marcia. (Chuckle) I really had a very smooth principalship in both instances. Of course there are many decisions to make all along the way and whether to call a certain teacher in to have a conference with her--that you didn't feel she taught that lesson that you observed very well uh that's just your duty to do. As far as a decision I think that there are really a lot of little ones. A decision as to whether to suspend a child or not now that used to tear me up (uneasy laughter). I really don't believe in suspensions. I don't believe in removing the child from the school situation that if he goes home that he is really on a vacation and I think it is so far removed from what he did--I don't think he connects the two in a meaningful way especially on the lower grade levels. But I have suspended children in the lower grades. I just agonized over it each time. I guess that is probably the hardest decision.
Q: Were you a manger of a building or an instructional leader and explain?
A: Well I hope I was both and primarily or firstly I mean an instructional leader. One has to be a manager of a building to be a principal. It is just necessary for the first reason for being there is to be an instructional leader. You can delegate a lot of the other managerial duties but the buck stops with the principal he is responsible no matter what.
Q: What was your key to success as a principal?
A: In retrospect I can humbly say that I did a pretty good job at least I was told that. My evaluations showed that (laughter) and if I were successful I think it was from listening to parents and in cases of problems with their children--and the children--dealing with children I would think of them as individuals with individual rights and they needed respect and they needed to have self confidence and what I did to them I must not damage them and their self confidence or their belief in themselves that they could succeed and that I believe that each one can succeed at something. Maybe they can't all be great mathematicians but they certainly can be successful in something and to find that and have them travel along and gain on their strengths and use their strengths to build their weaknesses
Q: What was your code of ethics as a principal?
A: Well a code of ethics--I dealt with the ones with whom I worked as equals. I was not anything superior to them except in my office designation (laughter). I was learning every day as well as they were and as we all do and I don't believe in pulling rank but of course when a decision had to be made I did not hesitate to make it as a principal. That is what one is there for too--but as far as ethics is concerned I think that treating each one with respect and knowing that they had personal lives and problems as well and that maybe they have some bad days and I have some bad days (laughter) and that we all have to learn to work together withstanding all of our personal problems. I can really look back and think that we did have some good associations--and we did learn together and did work out our problems together.
Q: What are your feelings about the responsibility of the principal for identifying and developing future school administrators and how did you go about it?
A: Well when one writes the evaluations there are many categories that we have to grade 1 through 5. Some of these topics were leadership abilities and of course if one sees a potential administrator uh I think the first thing to do is to encourage that person to get the training necessary. Say why don't you go take a class and let's see if you like it. You seem to have what it takes and that maybe you would like to go into administration and say help the young people to, if they are interested in that kind of thing, share their abilities because not every teacher is made to be an administrator. I think we have lots of times too we have sort of informal talks with the Director of Elementary Education and those who are higher up in the hierarchy to have the power to think about who will be an administrator and who won't that we can say to them whether informally or formally our thoughts that Miss Smith looks to me as someone who would be a real asset for administration and help them along with--and of course often times they ask for recommendations for certain job openings and that is a good opportunity to help those along that you think are destined for higher things.
Q: Now this one I want you to draw me a picture and take me back and put me into your place. Describe your typical workday in terms of how you spend your time and how did you spend the most of your time--like how you started on through to the end of it?
A: Of course there is no typical day (laughter) and you think what you are going to do and you don't do it. You are unable to do it. Well I uh got to work early and went into my office and there were always some teachers who came early too and they would come in and we would have coffee together. That was a little bit of free time and they could come in and they would always ask questions at this time too. That was just getting settled into our day--having coffee. Then I would work things on my desk lots of times faculty meetings were coming up and I would make up the program--the agenda, get the materials ready for the faculty meeting--I would have to get some articles and whatever and when one comes early to an elementary school or learning center the phone always rings and the secretaries aren't there so answering the phones is a big thing. Then to check on the substitutes. I myself call the substitutes for the teachers. At my last assignment--the assignment before that the assistant principal called the substitute teachers and that takes quite a bit of time. And I would check to see if there were any other substitutes on the other staff--the cafeteria, the custodial staffs, and many times with the bus situation the driver or the director of the buses would call and say that bus 58 was going to be late this morning and if you have any calls from parents you just say hold the children that the bus will be along. You have things to take care of. Then often parents would stop in with medication. You think this wouldn't happen very often but with little children there were--they were often on prescriptions and you would have umm we had a refrigerator in the nurse's office and I would have to put that away and make sure that the tickets were written up for the medication for the nurse to give and certain things of that kind. And then before I knew it the buses were coming in. The teachers would go to their rooms and the buses would come in and I was always on duty out especially in the kindergarten section. I would go into the other parts of the building but especially the kindergarten during busing. Then after the bell rang--the last bell rang and the teachers were in their room sometimes I would come in and talk with the secretary who was there then and we would go over what she had to do for the day and reports she had to get out or typing that she had to do for me and very often I would have to run materials through on the copier for certain teachers who had requested something. I had a basket on a...I had a second secretary part of the time...I had a desk out there on which I had a basket and if the teachers had a request such as for textbooks- they had a new child come to the room and they needed another textbook and so forth they could put their request in there--or they needed two more boxes of crayons or whatever (chuckle) and I spent some time initially at the beginning of each day filling those requests. I would have to go down to the supply room and get all these things and take them to the teachers or put them in their mail box--either way. I tried not to let them wait for things that they needed because they were there in the storeroom and it just meant that I would take a key and get them out so that was a fact. Then if everything was going well--I'd better retract a little bit and say that if there had been a substitute come in I would go to that room and make sure that she was in there, that she had signed in at the office and especially if she was a NEW substitute that she knew the routines that she had to sign in, leave her name and number at the main office and so forth and her social security number and that kind of thing. I'd make sure she was in that room and that she had the plans--that the teacher had left the plans and that she had something to go by and that the room was fairly good (laughter) because sometimes those kids would take advantage of substitutes as we all know and if they were in good control I would just move on--but if the kids needed to be spoken to, I would stay a few minutes and talk to them and get them under control so that she could carry on from there. And every once in a while during the day, if I felt the situation was shaky, maybe I would go back there and check on it. Then if there...I had hoped everything was fine I would go and do some observing because in order to write the evaluations for the teachers you had to observe in the classrooms. The teachers often asked that I come in at certain times which I did if I could. But sometimes it was sort of a surprise visit. I would hope to spend at least--in order to see what the teacher was doing and how she prepared for it beforehand or what she did with it afterwards for follow-up--I would have to spend almost a half hour and a little longer I would like to spend but at least a half hour in the room. By that time our pony would have come. That is our interdepartmental delivery. It comes from the School Board or the School Administration downtown or other schools to our schools. Most often there are things that have to be done right away buried in that pony express and I would continue observing and I mean sometimes this is not a formal observation. As you go down the hall you go by the boys restroom and to be very plain spoken if you smell urine you know the custodian has not done a job well enough. So you see things around and you talk with various people on the staff as you go around--sometimes to say you are doing a good job if they are or others may I suggest you go over that room again. Then very often I would just put my head in the doors of classrooms as I went by and I'd say--just say--I knew they were doing the opening exercises and I'd put my head in and say "good morning...how are you" and just wave to the teacher and they just loved that especially the little children that the principal popped her head in and they would always say good morning to me. (Laughter) It is so rewarding when you give them some attention. Sometimes unfortunately there would be somebody running down the hall which you would have to speak to "don't run in the halls" and you know and that kind of thing. If the nurse was not there I would have to take care of a sick child--call the parents, whatever was needed and I would continue on this sort of thing until the first lunch shift and then for all the lunch shifts I was in the cafeteria helping children with their lines and sometimes I would eat with the children. When I was there, the teachers stayed with their classes in the cafeteria. Now they have hired people who will come in and stay with the children and let the teachers have a break which is nice. But when I was there we didn't have any money for--appropriated for these luncheon people. I would change my seat and I ate with different classes. It is a new experience to sit with children when they are eating, I'll tell you. But anyway I was always on duty in there. There are many milk cartons that just don't open easily for these little hands and help...and just stand when they brought their trays back up they would often tip them, especially the kindergartners. They need another hand there and to keep things straight. Having them go in the right door (laugh) and out the right door. So that took through one o'clock. We had a lunch shift for each grade level. Very often I would have to have a conference with maybe the cafeteria manager or the head custodian about things in the building. In the afternoon I very often had parent conferences set up. In fact my calendar always had every little square filled with appointments -sometimes appointments with the speech therapist or various staff members or parents--very often with parents. Very often in the afternoons I saw the parents. If I had a chance I would visit more classrooms. I was seldom in my office except when there were things I had to work on or when I had conferences. Most of the time I was circulating around the building. And uh another time when a principal gives her total attention is to busing in the afternoon and that would take another half hour or more. Then very often there would be more conferences after school whether formal or informal and faculty meetings we had as needed. But sometimes it met once a week after school--faculty meetings. In service meetings very often after school and after school and before school we had grade level meetings. Now grade level chairmen as I mentioned before were expected to call the meetings when it was convenient for the teachers in her grade level either before school or after and I was always invited--notified when they were meeting and always invited. I did not get to everyone of them but I always got a written report. The recorder always sent me a written report. And just numbers of conferences with a new teacher or in-service for the aids--the instructional aids or a new custodian had to be or interview for a new custodian. People are not just hired by coming in and asking for a job. The head maintenance people have to take all the names for a new custodian and you have to interview maybe three or four and you cannot show any preference by refusing them an interview. And then you have to have another conference with the people from maintenance and suggest your choice and then when you have the man on staff you have to get a job description to him and make sure he understands what his job description entails. Some principals go so far as to sign that they had read the description which is not a bad idea. And always there is a need to be accessible to any of the people who work in the building. And if a teacher is having a problem with a child you come in and talk about it and see what was best to do and of course the first thing I always advise is to call the parent and tell the parent we are having the problem and see if the parent can suggest something or explain it--for some reason something has happened at home. But get the parent in. A great many conferences you have to have just to have the parents sign permission for things for the children. If it is anything different from what all the other children are doing you have to have permission. Lunch forms to go over and I always did those eligibility for free lunches or those for reduced lunches. Just a variety of all kinds of things come on the desk and you have to stay sharp because if you make a mistake on those things...you know we are monitored in every aspect of what we do...not just the finances but all kinds of monitoring in everything we do. So a principal could not just be lazy and sign something. You know you really have to look it over and make sure it is right. You know even on the book inventories...the book inventories used to be a nagging worry to me...
Q: One more question on your day...you said you got there early...so what time did you arrive and what time did you leave on a typical day?
A: I arrived anywhere from 7:15 to 7:30 and some awful days I remember that the head custodian didn't come and unlock the building and I would have to unlock the whole building (laughter) and another thing the principal does...talking about unlocking the building...we had a warning system for burglars, break-ins and vandals and so forth in the school and this warning system in these schools both that I had would send a...there is a business that monitors has a listening device over in Norfolk...they hear this...they pick up this signal and they warn the police here in Portsmouth then they warn the principal and the principal has to go to the building to unlock the building to find out what the problems are...and that was always a nightmare for me to go especially to that downtown school...but my husband would always go with me. But anyway I was almost always there by 7:30 and most days it was 4:30 to 5:00 before I got home. But I was only about 10 minutes away from my last school.
Q: That's a long day.
A: Uh Uh.
Q: How did you account for your success as an administrator? I think we covered that one earlier didn't we?
A: Uh Uh we did.
Q: What caused you to choose retirement when you did?
A: Well a number of factors came into it. Age wise I was not quite...I was not 65 but very near and my daughter was going to law school and I could help immeasurably with the two children and since I was near retirement it would help so much in my personal life to be at home. Uh I did. My husband has not retired yet and he is older than I am (laughter).
Q: What have I not asked you that I should have asked you?
A: I think Marcia that you have covered half the waterfront. One thing I would like to say is that a principal has to have a pretty good self concept. Because you do hear many untoward things from perhaps parents whose children are not progressing the way they would like and you do have to deal with the public and sometimes people on the phone are rude to you which everyone has to face. But in order to do a good job you have to believe in yourself and think to yourself what you are doing and why you are doing it often to sort of give yourself some stimulus there...and really to believe in yourself and to believe in your teachers. You have to have faith that they are doing the right things as well as monitoring them but you have to believe in them. And of course you have to like the children no matter what they are doing. You've got to work with them so they can do their best.
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