Interview with George Hardie

March 6, 1977

Retired in 1977.

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Q: Would you begin by telling us your family background, childhood interests and development?

hardie audio (Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)

A: I sure would. I was born in Youngstown. I was raised at 828 E. Boston Avenue. I attended Wilson High School and I've always loved sports. I went to Taft, Wilson Junior High School and South. I graduated from South in 1938. My family, I had three brothers. All hard workers, we were a very close family. My parents were strict, but they were fair, and alot of this was during Depression time.

Q: Would you discuss your college education. Maybe your high school and college education and how it prepared you to enter the teaching field?

A: I attended Youngstown College and took the educational classes towards teaching. But in the same year, the war came along and instead of taking my student teaching, I took up flying. I became a Navy pilot, so I forgot all about education and teaching. When I finally did go back to teaching, I was in 35 years. After the war, my Mother and Dad moved to Chicago while we were in the service. My brother came back to Youngstown. The circumstances that lead me to this field of principal, my experience as a coach, athletic director, Navy pilot, teacher

Q: What grade level did you teach?

A: Well I had grade levels from 10-12, mostly 10th graders. When I first started up there, Wilson had 9th grade too. I used to have Social Studies, and then I finally became Physical Education teacher. I had all PE after that. Until I became the Athletic Director at Wilson. I became the visiting teacher at Wilson and the area around there. I gave up the AD and PE.

Q: Does the Visiting Teacher do the same thing then as today?

A: Yes, I used to call them the old truant officers. But I'd check on absenteeism. Why they were absent too often? If it was a real bad case, I take them down to hearing at the court with Judge Martin Joyce, (there was a good man), really good judge. Very fair , but he was strict. Take the families down, that's where I got to know families so well too. Where I got to know the idea that some of these kids are lucky to be in school, when they are in school. Because some of the families just don't care. The fortunate thing I found in this whole thing and I mean this sincerely, out of any school you go to, I would say the biggest, the majority of the people parents and kids are good, it's just a small handful of the parents and kids that aren't good.

Q: I think so too. Do you want to talk a little bit about your philosophy of education and what you think of school and maybe how they can improve.

A: Well my philosophy of education, the first thing I would consider the thought of each student. What they need try to achieve those goals for them. There's alot of good students in high school, and you read papers with bad this and bad that, it's not true. In all my experience, the biggest majority of all students are good in any school. There's a few bad, and they are the ones that disrupt all of them. And those are the ones education should be pointing at to get out. Do something, I don't know how to do it. Meet with these parents. I've learned as a visiting teacher it is very important to be able to talk to parents and know where these kids are coming from. You visit these houses, you can understand why those kids couldn't come to school. Sometimes, they did not have clean clothes, no shoes, parents...mothers didn't care. They are laying around, doing whatever, they just didn't care. I found it very important to talk to parents. When I became principal, I talked to parents all the time, call them to tell them their kids were doing good, or tell them their kids were doing bad. Go to PTA's with them, Mother Club Meetings, and let them know I'm there, I'm in favor of their kids. But they better not cross us. Do what they are there to do and we'll get along fine. That's my philosophy of teaching.

Q: What techniques did you use when you were principal to create a successful climate for learning?

A: Well, the first thing I always made sure I was truthful with the students. I wouldn't promise them something I couldn't keep and I made sure if I made a promise, I would do it, and I was truthful with them. I'd bring them along at their own rate, because some kids aren't as smart as others, took them a little longer to get, but they all learned. I never threatened a kid, you do this or I'll da da da. I'd just do it, if he did something wrong. (Q: They knew the rules in advance) and I'd never threaten him because threatening, if they went wrong, I'd get them and tell them what they did wrong and what they should do to correct it. The other thing, I was always sure I'd be there when they needed me. Like in my hours, school was over at 3:30 I'd be over there until 5-5:30, if kids wanted to see me, I'd be there longer and of course games and that we were always there longer. I would say about 50 hours a week that I'd spend. I'd be at school at 7:00 in the morning school didn't start until 8:00 I'd be practically the last one to leave, in the evening, if there were games or dances, or something we'd go around the corner, have dinner and come back in, be there until 9-10:00. As far as asking hours, you can't set a definite hour because you don't know.

Q: How did that effect your family life? You probably didn't get to see your family too often.

A: Well it dropped a little but my wife understood, and I'd call her from work if I was going to be late. But she knew, regular day, I be home around 5:00, 5:30 at the latest. If there were something going on later that night, a game, I would tell them, it will be a little later, 6:00-7:00, I'd be home. But I'd let the family know.

Q: Would you tell me what kind of things teachers expect principals to be able to do?

A: I think the main thing the teacher expects the principal to do, they must be able to handle all disciplinary problems. Come to their aid, help them if parents are in there giving them heck. You are there to defend your teacher, defend his act because you know that teacher is doing what he or she should be doing. Your job is to keep the discipline.

Q: What are your views of being an effective principal?

A: I have quite a few here, the one that I have always thought as a principal, do not have a pet teacher. That is unfair to all the rest of the teachers if you give that teacher all the easy chores. No, treat them all alike.

Q: And that probably has to be difficult, when you become an assistant principal, you know one or two people from the building you would teach at?

A: True, but you can't let that influence you because you are not fair to the rest of the teachers. The other thing to be an effective principal, involve yourself with all aspects of the school. Scheduling is one of the most important, I've known people that other people do the scheduling and that's not right. Principal's are supposed to keep the classes down to right sizes, try to arrange other classes so to give every teacher equal load. I think that he should be involved in sports. He should know what is going on in his sports department. What they're doing, are they doing it right? Are they doing things they should be doing? Know about your PTA's, your Women's Clubs, anything that has to do with school, parents, you be there, they like to see you, they think it shows you're interested and that shows the principal cares. The other thing you should know, where you can get aid if you can't do it. We have different departments down at the Board of Education, we have different Doctor's out there, personal friend of yours and you know they can help a kid. And if you don't get it, have them call. So they can get help if they really need it. My other objectives is to be polite to everyone I talk to. Sometimes I did not feel like it, but I tried to be polite, students, parents, teachers, all of them.

Q: Even when you were met with a hostile parent?

A: I would try to be polite.

Q: Hostile teacher?

A: Sometimes it would tax me, then I'd tell them, keep quiet, I'm talking. Then I'd try to be nice about it. The other thing I believe a principal should always be properly dressed. I'm a firm believer, you dress nice and you act nice. You dress like a bum, you act like a bum, and if you go to the high schools you find alot of the bums and how they dress.

Q: So you wore a suit and tie?

A: It didn't have to be a suit and tie, in the Summer time, I'd have a sport coat and sport shirt. But I think you should dress, I saw some that weren't too darn neat, blue jeans with patches. I don't believe in that.

Q: As Principal's?

A: I'm not going to mention any names. When there are rules in the school, like dress code, take books home, whatever, enforce them. Don't skip them. Enforce them. Talk to parent groups, whenever you can. I don't care what the subject is, you can always bring in school matters if you want to. Never, I repeat never make a decision while angry. Things said in anger should never have been said. Especially said to a student, is worse than to an adult. You can come back to the adult and apologize. It's tough to have to go back to your student and apologize. I've done it, but it's tough. And above all, he should be a good disciplinarian. If he isn't, the school's in trouble. But be fair all the time.

Q: Would you expect the teacher's to handle the normal classroom discipline? For example now, they don't show up with books, paper and pencil, I ...

A: The teacher should handle that. The principal shouldn't be involved in that, I've had a few cases like that "Johnny didn't bring a pencil." I say "That's not my responsibility, that's yours. Not mine." If Johnny didn't bring his books, it's her's, not the principal's responsibility. Behavior is his. I don't expect my teacher to fight with a kid, I'll fight with the kid. But pencil & paper, that's the teacher's.

Q: In the City now they have different disciplinary levels, Level I offenses, Level II offenses, Level III offenses...

A: I don't know about that.

Q: Paper & pencil (that type of thing) is Level I, cheating is Level I, dealt with by the teachers, students don't report to class, that should all be handled by the teacher. It's tough because I think they put alot of stuff on teachers,

A: If they are rude to them, boy I don't believe in that. That's the principal's job. He can get more across that the teacher can to a student, but he has to carry it out. Because he has the power to suspend, he can call the visiting teacher, so & so is this, I want him out of here. Parents come back in, we'll have a talk. Teacher can't do that. I don't think schools are honoring or giving credit to good students anymore. I think they have gone away from that because they are tata to the bad, so they don't feel so bad, they are doing this. I can remember in high school, our National Honor Society would get all the honor students up there, pin a badge on them, pin on them, tell everybody they are National Honor Society. I don't see any harm in that. That year, because I didn't make it, I didn't feel bad about that. And today, I think that what they are afraid of, the bad bunch, try to influence this bunch over here and they say well you don't give us something. Well you didn't deserve anything. So often communities today, look at your newspaper, do you ever read anything good about schools today? It's all bad. Or a good student, once in awhile.

Q: In your opinion, do you think we have alot of parental involvement in a negative way, saying that my son or daughter should be getting an A, my son or daughter should be playing on the team or starting. You know, just your opinion.

A: I think you'll always get that. Being a coach, I had alot of that. My son was better than anybody else, but he wasn't proving it to me on the football field. As far as your Board of Educations, sure they are educators, they are businessmen, housewives, but they are not the one that runs the school, the superintendent is the one in charge of running the school. He has to sometimes get the approval of the Board, but he is the one that does hiring of teachers, so forth... That's his job, not the Board's job. The Board's job is to see that he's not overspending, doing this and doing that. My experience with superintendent and Board of Education, I get along fine with them. I disagreed a couple times, the superintendent and I had a run-in once, I was a president of the YAASP, and it happened he blamed me being the president, on what happened and he'd already given me the permission to do it too. But anyway, no, on the whole, they are pretty good. Mel Catsoules was a principal at Rayen before he became superintendent, and Mel was a good fellow. He was a politician also, and I thought the combination made him a better superintendent, but I think people will always pressure when their sons or so forth, and it's usually the ones doing the pressing are doing it for the wrong reasons. That's all I am going to say about that.

Q: I'll ask you what the Board of Education expected you to do as a principal, and what the community expected you to do as a principal, or how did they see your role.

A: That's hard for me to answer how the community sees my role, or how they see the role of their kids, the teachers and the school, it's substitute parents for them. The Board of Education and Superintendent expected the principal to handle everything that happened in that building. It was your responsibility, and that was their way of handling things. Alot of times, if you did something and a racial thing came up then, they didn't back many of those principals.

Q: What do you think about guns in the school?

A: The police would come in handy, let them handle it. Not a teacher, not a principal, let the police have their job disarming people. That's my feeling on it. I think metal detectors, anything to keep guns out of the school, I say go for it.

Q: Definitely, it is needed, even though it makes it feel like a prison sometimes, But if it is going to save one student or a teacher before something really happens, it's worth it. There are those people that say that you should be a good instructional leader, manager, managing people, managing your teachers students, what do you think about that?

A: Well I'm a firm a good one. Be able to handle tough situations. As they appear. You do have a staff to help you do some of these things, the things that a principal has to do money wise, you have the county, they could take care of the books for you, check them. There are plenty of people down at the Board of Education to help you. Because I don't care who you are, you don't know everything. There are times, that although you may be a good principal, there are things that come up that you don't know what to do. So you have to know who to go to for help. Manager must be able to sell education, to not only teachers but the students. An instructor or what not has their education, they're smart or they would not be there in the first place. They have to be real good managers.

Q: Do you think that if a particular problem came up, you could talk to your colleagues at another school? Could you call somebody over at South and say "Hey, what do you think about this situation?"

A: It depends on your relationship with them. In school there is a department to take care of it, called the Board of Education. I have this happening, what do you think is the right way to go about it? They may not always give you the right answer. But at least, I'm trying to find out the right way. Or if something happened here, I may call the principal at South, or someplace else. To see how they would have handled it. These are things that don't have to be decided right away. Because you had to make decisions, you had to make them sometimes in a hurry. But then, I'm a firm believer, if I make a decision, and it's wrong, I'm not afraid to admit it. I'll tell the student, "I was wrong. It was such a hurry, I thought that this was going to be the best things at the time. So I apologize."

Q: It is also said that a principal should be active in community affairs, civic groups. You spend many of time as principal or assistant principal, now you have to have time for the community affairs. What do you think?

A: I was very fortunate, with community affairs and so forth. I don't want to say this in a bragging sense, I was President of the Mahoning Valley Coaches, President of the Ohio Coaches, President of the YAASP, I belong to the PTA groups, I went to Mother's Groups, all of these are community, one was working towards better schools. I mean this. You say, well what do coaches have to do with this. You have to see what happened to others schools, you are trying to correct what you're doing wrong and so forth. And it is very helpful, I think you should belong to many community groups, and get the people in that territory to come to school. I would love to have one day, every parent, bring their kid to school. If you try to have a kid bring a parent to school today, Lord that would be the worst thing to happen to that kid. I would, I think the parents would really wake up as to what is really going on. I think so. For them to see what their kids have to go through everyday.

Q: What do you think about teachers moving up to principals?

A: I don't think every teacher wants to become a principal, they might want to stay a teacher. But if you want to move up, you have to structure your stuff to work towards that. Because there are alot of teachers that don't give a hoot about being a principal. They just like what they are going and that's it.

Q: Let's talk about pay. You started out at $1800/yr. which is low.

A: High at that time. I had a $300 service pay.

Q: Even with 7-8 years, myself still being under $30,000. What do you think. Do teachers get paid enough, do principal's get paid enough?

A: $30,000 that is darn near twice what I finished at.

Q: As a teacher or as a principal?

A: Both. I think pays have gone up. I think they deserve it, as I explained before, I started at $1800, $300 for that was for military time. It was slow getting pay raises. They are up there pretty decent now in pay plans. You talk about merit system. I'm strictly against the merit system. My objection against the merit system is, first of all, who's going to be the judge to decide who has the merits? That's number one. A good teacher knowing that person is coming around to your class to judge you on merit, you could change your lesson plan to be the best teacher in the school that day. Did that warrant that you're a merit? No I don't believe in it. I think the best way is the way they have it, years of service you get paid. Of course it was more than I got, right now the pays are pretty good.

Q: Do you think principal's get paid enough?

A: Now, yes, I do. Then no. When I was principal at Volney there, hours alone, I was never less than 50 hours/week, never. Sometimes, much more. Depends what is going on in school. Summer, I usually had summer school, and that paid different. I'm talking about the actual school and at that time, I don't think we were paid enough. With Volney, they had a pay scale. Low class, low income people, would get more money than at Volney Rogers, so forth, Hillman making more money than I was at Volney doing the same job. I don't think that's right. I didn't think it was right then. But, the other thing I think of pay. They talk about continuing contracts. I'm a firm believer and I think it's one of the other questions, about evaluations. Teacher just starting I think that they should be evaluated and I mean really evaluated for a period of 3 years at least. And not just once in awhile. I mean really evaluated because once they get to a continuing contract then it's tough to get rid of them. In my experience, I'm not going to mention any names, there's alot of teachers that should never been in that classroom. But they had continuing contracts. and then nothing could be done. I don't think that's right. But, fortunately the majority of them are good qualified teachers. And this is more the older people, I don't know how it is today, they have to be and then even when you get your continuing contract, they should have things in it why you can still be dismissed. For instance moral sins, sexual encounters with students, robbery or anything that's bad you should not be a teacher, period. If you do that you deserve to lose your contract. Now because you probably know as a teacher you have the advantage over those kids, alot of those girls fall in love with you. They are already set up for you now if you were that kind of guy, you could do it. Easy. And I think it's wrong, I think it's very wrong. If they do something like that BOOM! Like they have one case right now. I don't believe he should be a teacher, period. They should be out! So that's my feeling.

Q: Do you want to talk about evaluation of teachers?

A: I did there.

Q: You had to evaluate teachers?

A: No, I never really had to. I was assistant principal, Sam did that. He said that's the job he wanted. Summer school, the only evaluation I did when I was a principal, a teacher would send in to me that they'd like to teach. If I were doubtful, I'd call the principals. To see what kind of teachers they were. Before I'd hire them. If that's an evaluation. That's the only one I really had to evaluate.

Q: They do now evaluate teachers who are not on continuing contract, four times a year. Two times early, two times later.

A: I think it should be more. I do because a year, you haven't faced all the situations. You should be evaluated after a continuing contract.

Q: Do you want to talk about the assistant principal?

A: When you talk about assistant principals. All it is is the assistant to the principal. He does the same thing the principal does, you follow his guidelines of what he wants, it's his school. You may not agree with it, but you follow his lines, and you do exactly what you would do if you were that principal. Although you are the assistant, you don't know how many times you are the principal. The principal is out sick, the principal's here, there, and it's your job to make them follow the rules. If you disagree with the principal, Sam and I had a real good understanding if I disagreed with him, we were having a cup of coffee in his office, we shut the door, then we'd argue it out. I told him why I disagree, he told me why he didn't and we'd decide an equal course and we'd do it. They didn't try to dissuade me from doing things like this. They wanted it. Because they'd make mistakes, just like I'd make mistakes. We were good, I thoroughly enjoyed working with Sam. He was tough, I mean tough. He wanted his teachers, no leaving the buildings early, you were there until it was time to go. But he was good, he was fair and if anything happened, he was first one down at that Board of Education fighting for his teachers.

Q: That's what a principal has to do.

A: That's right, that's what they should do.

Q: What about some of the assistant principals that you've had, that you felt were good, that helped you on the job. What happened to those individuals?

A: I have two in mind that I thought were real good, when I was principal of the summer school, Chuckie Samerone was the assistant, when he was the principal, I was his assistant. And I had Pat Ungaro on my staff at one time, and today Pat is the Mayor of Youngstown and Chuckie is the President of the Council. So I think they must have been pretty good.

Q: Schools have become much larger, Let's talk about that. How many students would Wilson have had at that time? or Volney? They say that the population of the City is dropping. Look at Boardman High School is now. Do you think that is good or bad? Instruction, the advantage of kids program.

A: The size of the school, makes a big difference. Alot of the schools were built to hold so many students, period. During periods, they overflowed. It's bad, It's bad on teacher, It's bad on students. It's bad on everybody. My feeling a class of 25-30 should be the biggest class you have so that will give a teacher time to work individually with students. You put 40-50 kids in there, the class is so big you won't have seats for them and it's not fair. It's not fair to you, it's not fair to the students, it's not fair to anyone. And I'm not blaming the principals or anything for this. But what happens that have their curriculum, and so many more want to take this, instead of this. This teacher has hardly any, and you're loaded. I don't know what you do about that. I know we used to try to talk these people into going, or we'd try to talk the Board into getting another teacher to help fill in for the extra students. But then you always come to a point when there's no room. The buildings were built for so many. I don't know how you would solve it because you never know. Right after the Baby Boom after WWII, boy the schools crowed, boom, boom, boom, boom! Attendance has gone down again so, there's no way you can plan for it. Really I can't understand it. I would say a class between 25-30 is plenty. Gym class you can handle much more. But in actual classrooms, you can't. Shop class is the same way. You want them to get an education. Plus the safety there.

Q: What about the traffic in the hallways? Bigger schools, more disadvantageous than smaller schools?

A: The one thing that I have noticed, alot of schools, the hallways are too small. Rayen I always liked because the big hallways they didn't crowd one another. And that's where I think the principal's job should come in. We used to do it at Volney Rogers every class. The principal and I would be out in the hall, just standing there, we didn't have to say anything, just stand there. Volney's a beautiful setting. Pretty, nicest school in the city I think. Just stand right out there, you get all the students, walk by you.

Q: Schools with multi-floors?

A: With different floors, you'd have to move around more. At least get out.

Q: You have to be visible.

A: Yes, that's the main thing. Never the same routine, always change and if you had two assistant's have them out too. Watching.

Q: What about your relationship with the superintendent and how'd you feel about the different buildings you were in while principal?

A: My relations with the superintendent were very fortunate most of the time because first of all, they were former teachers, I knew them then, Pegese, Chaney, my relations were alright, I disagreed with them sometimes but it didn't mean I was right or they were wrong. The Board and I have always gotten along. In fact one of the Board members, I had her daughter in school. I knew her quite well. We got along pretty well, in fact you'd very seldom see the Board for any reason. The principal may seen they every once in while. But not the teacher. Your contract is with the superintendent. So as far as I'm concerned, the Board, they try to do their business and I try to do mine. That all there is to it.

Q: You said you were President of YAASP, How did that effect your relationship with the superintendent? Can you answer that?

A: Well when I was the President of YAASP at the time, Pegese was the superintendent, so Pegese being a former administrator also, knew some of the things I was fighting for. We had our misunderstandings, and we had our understandings. I did make a mistake once, I really don't think it was a mistake, we decided YAASP to have a golf outing, this was after school was closed in June, okay, the assistant principals were done, the principals were still there, I talked to the superintendent told him what I planned, he said "I don't see any problem with that", I said we can make up the day if you want, we had the day. I'm on the golf course, I get a call, superintendent, he wanted to see me in the morning, so I go down, I never should have done it because I made a mistake, I hadn't asked the women part of YAASP, I never even thought of it. I just asked the fellows and but all the fellows which were very happy, Pegese said, "well you've got to make up the whole day." Every one of them came back an extra day to make up. Because we took a half a day off. So we made up a whole day afterwards, I was through two weeks after school was out, principals work a month after, all the principals went the day after, every one of them. People down at the Board, Mathey, all of them, went an extra day. So we satisfied the superintendent. But YAASP very interesting.

Q: How is that in relation to the YEA? It's strength.

A: No, it's different than the YEA. We were not their to fight the wages, we were there to try to correct things at schools that isn't touched by the program or what not. We can help one another straighten out different situations at each school. We'd meet once a month and talk things over. I certainly enjoyed it. I was very surprised when I was elected because I never dreamt that.

Q: Is it voluntary to be in it?

A: Oh yea, but everybody did.

Q: Were there dues that you had to pay?

A: Yes, summer time the have a luncheon after school's over and they honor the retired principals. Every summer, July. They always had secretaries to do the paperwork. If you didn't, you'd have typing classes that would type things up for you. So that was no problem.

Q: Professional code of ethics? You mentioned about being fair.

A: I think I've covered it all. Be truthful, fair, I think I covered that.

Q: How about operating in a tense environment? More stressful than a teacher? I see a principal stuck in the middle of the teachers, parents and the superintendent sometimes. Sometimes that principal is in a no win situation.

A: Well when you say stresses or tense, I can honestly say that I've never felt that way. I never felt stress, I didn't feel tense. Because I thought I was doing what I should be doing. And people had to understand that. If ever would I, golf would take my tension away, but I honestly, was never tense. And I wanted to get this in somewhere I believe very strongly when I was in high school, I could not stand up in front of a class and recite. I knew the answers, but Busty Ashball was my math teacher also my coach, finely got me aside and said "George, I'm enrolling you in public speaking." I said "Busty, what am I going to do in that?" "Eventually you are going to have to stand up in front of people, no matter what you do and be able to talk to them. So I'm enrolling you." Best thing that ever happened to me. I can get up in front of people just it doesn't bother me. In class, honest, I wouldn't even raise my hand. I think schools should do that to people. They are a student, shop, some case they have to be able to express themselves to people. I think that's a wonderful opportunity.

Q: Can you tell me what lead up to your retirement?

A: What lead up to my retirement? I think what really lead up to my retirement is years. I had my 35 years in and I thought I'm not too old, I think I was 57, I think I'll try something else. So I went down, Mike Mitchell again. He and I had been friends for years he was with Youngstown AAA. He called me down there to work, I eventually became manager of it. I worked down there 10 years and I retired again. That's the only reason I retired. I had my years and and I thought, time to start something else.

Q: That's interesting. Knowing when to go and getting out when you're still young.

A: 57 wasn't too old to retire at that time.

Q: Any advise that you'd want to give to someone thinking about becoming a principal?

A: I think that's a very hard question to answer. The only advise I can say is work hard towards your goal. Any goal, whether teacher, principal, whatever it is. Work hard. Be honest with yourself. If you're not a good teacher, or you're not a good principal, forget about it. Why suffer? Why have other people suffer? How do you know what makes a good principal, what do you have to do? I look at all my experience, I had quite a few, and everyone in some way helped me.

Q: What about a university course that helped you?

A: Yes, I would say they helped. But there again, my bitch, pardon, my gripe, is the same then as now. There's no one there that has actually done the work that they're trying to tell me and I'm studying. But I think I had good professors, I enjoyed them. Of course Youngstown College was not a very big place. My senior year, I forgot all about that, I took up flying and that was my life from then on until I got out of the war.

Q: So would you say that sometimes it is just a matter of going in there and doing your job?

A: Some people are suited for these things, some aren't. In your education field, I think you have a certain breed of people. They are there for the purpose of aiding and helping the students. It takes a different kind of individual to do that. Not everyone can do it. I used to think it was a great one for women, but I'm not to sure now, the way things are going. Before what a beautiful job for a woman. I still say "Thank God", in all those schools, there are good students, many people graduated from Wilson are lawyers, doctors, announcers, owners of companies, beautiful people. And they were just plain ordinary students when they went through. It was just part of the schools doing a good job. I think they need help now. I think they need help for the parents...bad. They need help from the community. There are good things about schools.

Q: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Certainly this will be of value.

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