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Q: Why did you decide to become a principal?

norton audio (Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)

A: Well, I had been teaching six or seven years in the county that they needed a principal and I applied. They liked my credentials and my experience and that's how I became a principal.

Q: There was nothing that you had planned for years and years to do.

A: No, I hadn't planned anything as far as I was very happy as a teacher but I felt that perhaps it was time for a promotion. I accepted the principalship.

Q: What was your school's philosophy?

A: to put in a brief statement. I believe the philosophy of the school was in this rural area to attempt to take children they were and develop them as best we could, carry them as far as we could in their education, some parents that were very supportive of the schools and there were a few who were not supportive but we attempted to carry the child if he is capable to his fullest potential.

Q: At that time and in that area, were the schools concerned with only academics or were there moral issues and so forth? Also were you developing the whole child or just the academic child?

A: We attempted to do both. The school was the most important institution other than perhaps the church in the rural county. And we tried to do everything for the child that we could. We provided social activities as well as the academic program in the school. The school sponsored so many things that the community could not support, could not sponsor the school attempted to do that. There was little social life for children in a rural community. It had to be organized and the school assumed it to be its responsibilities to fill that void.

Q: How was the school's philosophy developed?

A: During my principalship the school philosophy was developed through the teachers in groups, through faculty meeting, and discussion groups we attempted to carry the community with us on developing the philosophy, leaders in the community there was a strong Parent-Teacher Organization in the county and that was great to use in developing. We attempted not to get the philosophy beyond the understanding of the community. So we attempted to carry the community with us as we developed that philosophy.

Q: What is your philosophy of education?

A: I sometimes have difficulty in pinning down my philosophy. It is an attempt to take a child as far as he can go intellectually and develop him as well as we can socially. That means giving and this may be outdated today, to give some moral training that perhaps was not furnished in the home. I believe if I had to sum it up that would be my philosophy of education. Taking a child where we find him and carry him as far as he can go, in all aspects of learning.

Q: What is your philosophy of Teaching? Does it differ from your philosophy of education?

A: No, I think the same way, you have to have a love for children, and if you don't have that you can't be a good teacher. You must be as a teacher, my philosophy has always been that a teacher must be firm but that teachers at the same time must always be fair in dealing with children because I used to tell the teachers in that rural community that we teach everybody's child regardless of what his background might be, even if he is from the most learned parent as well as those who were from parents that were completely ignorant. There were some parents who valued education, there were some parents who didn't think education mattered to much but in treating those children we had to ignore that background to some degree and try to give the same education program to all.

Q: What is your personal leadership philosophy?

A: My personal philosophy in leadership is you don't ask somebody to do what you would not be willing to do. That is if you want, in leadership I think you must be someone who is capable or willing to do the things you are asking someone else to do.

Q: How did you create a climate for learning?

A: As a principal he has the job in having an attractive and comfortable place in which that teacher must operate and the children to learn. Be friendly and understand the teachers so that you can give as much leadership as you can to each one. You must have a love and understanding of children. And that why we attempted to provide that materials that were necessary for that teacher to use. Whether it be a textbook or movie projector, I tried thru leadership to get the Board of Education to provide them with all to do a good job of teaching.

Q: What leadership techniques did you use while creating a climate for learning?

A: I think I have just organized some of them . Giving them the tools with which to do the job and I think the principal has to take that leadership because the teacher is not in a position to do it.

Q: Which leadership techniques were successful and which were unsuccessful?

A: I don't know that I used any particular technique. As a principal I would approach my superintendent and attempt to convince him of the needs and he in turn convinced the Board of Education, and I didn't ask for things that weren't needed and attempted to ask for things that we definitely needed first. I had success in attempting to provide the materials that were needed through pleading, selling, or praying.

Q: What role did you play in public community relations?

A: I took an active part in the activities of the community, I was in the civic clubs of the county, was active in church work, and there was a strong Parent-Teacher Organization existing when I came to the county and I attempted to keep the community informed by a weekly newspaper the county had and when radio became prominent with a close local station I attempted to provide information through the radio. These were the days prior to television.

Q: How did you evaluate teachers?

A: Through observation, visitation, individual conferences, the success of her children, through inspection of report cards, and conversing with parents of children who were in that teacher's classroom.

Q: What techniques did you use to make teachers feel important?

A: In visiting a classroom, you make the teacher feel at ease and if you see something good going on compliment it, don't be always negative. Find something positive to point out that you like and give some direction for improvement in a friendly and not critical way but a positive way.

Q: What do you think teachers expect principals to be?

A: I think teachers expect the principal to be the leader of the total school program. Sometimes I feel they may have expected more, if a broken window wasn't replaced immediately, they perhaps blamed the principal rather than the maintenance man and sometimes there are things the principal should attend to that didn't come to his attention promptly. Basically the teachers expected the principal to be the leader of the education program and to take an interest in what they were doing and show some appreciation for what they were doing.

Q: What does it take to be an effective principal?

A: A sense of humor, an understanding of human personalities, that no two teachers will be alike and you have to treat each one a little bit different. Be there when needed. Show appreciation for what the teacher is doing and don't listen to every criticism that comes to you about a teacher from a parent but find out for yourself what any difficulties might be.

Q: What pressures did you as a principal face? Unusual pressures?

A: I don't reckon there were any outstanding pressures, but it has been sometime since I was a principal. I am trying to separate pressures of a principal from those of a superintendent. There was always the pressure that I didn't get everything done that I wanted to get done. I guess that was one of the biggest pressures I had. The time element. Maybe I worked too slowly. It seemed like I could never get accomplished every day the things I wanted to get accomplished and in a week. Not to get accomplished what I strived to complete in a week. I think the pressure of not accomplishing everything you start out to accomplish, would be my biggest pressure.

Q: How did you handle this pressure?

A: I had someone tell me one time about pressure. They said don't make any hasty judgments, that a problem today if you take it home and slept with it under your pillow it would be smaller tomorrow and I tried to practice that, I am an easy going person and try not to get upset about little things and try to follow the philosophy that man gave me of the problem will be smaller tomorrow than it was today. Most of them. Some problems require immediate attention but most are such that you can afford to take the time to think things through so that you don't go off half cocked with a decision.

Q: How did you handle teacher grievances? And if any examples.

A: I tried to be a good listener. Sometimes grievances bring about changes. They bring things to you that you never thought of. I tried to explain to the teachers that had grievances, I tried to explain if it was different from a policy I would ask for recommendations of how that policy should be put into effect. Usually if you explain the reasons for a policy the teachers generally would understand. Most of the grievances that came to me came because of a misunderstanding of what was expected or what the policy entailed. I was fortunate perhaps in this rural community of being a principal prior to any organized groups as far as grievances were concerned. We may say that teachers were too complacent then but I was not presented with any major grievances during my term as a principal.

Q: Did you ever fire a teacher?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you discuss it?

A: I can site several but I'll give you one. We employed a beginning teacher and he lived a good distance from school as far as that day was concerned, 10 miles, he had a car and he was continually late for meeting his homeroom in the morning, his first class. We talked to him about it and he had excuses each time, car wouldn't start, he overslept, his alarm clock didn't go off. But it continued on and on and after many conferences. He would be late with his reports, the reports due at a particular period, his report cards for students, his reports of attendance. We tolerated it for a time and gave him an opportunity to improve but there was little improvement and our only choice was that we did not renew his contract to continue teaching.

Q: How did you handle Civil Rights Issues?

A: At the time I was a principal, Civil Rights as an issue had not come to Virginia in a sense. I was principal of a totally white public school but there were schools for the Blacks as well. The ratio of Blacks to Whites in Amelia County was 60% Black and 40% White. The newer schools in Amelia Co. were for Black children. The parents were proud of their schools they had Parent-Teacher Organization, they had the same curriculum the white children had, and I can't say this for a fact but I believe there was a larger percentage of Blacks taking full advantage of education than white children. Their parents were interested as I observed in their children getting a good education. I was in the Black schools occasionally. I consulted with the Principal of the black school and he consulted with me and our programs were almost identical.

Q: How can we improve education, teachers?

A: I have been out of education 12 years, I don't know that I have any wise advise to give. I do know that the school population now is much different from what it was when I was a principal in the 40's and early 50's. So many things changing in the community. So many things brought about nationally. I don't know what my philosophy would be if I was back in the school's now, how I would treat certain issues or deal with discipline problems or with the drug problem. I don't believe I could handle the pupil population of today as easily as I dealt with them in the 40's and early 50's because children mature so much earlier now than they did then. In that rural community they had a much stronger support for education and a much greater appreciation for education. As far as my observation goes than the parents of today.

Q: Do you have any thoughts on why this might have happened? What brought about the change?

A: I think it is that there are many more two breadwinners in most families. Their children are left unsupervised more today than in that little rural community that I dealt with. It was a industrial area where both parents work and leave home sometimes before children leave for school and that puts right much pressure on a young child. As a result I think some of the results of children being unsupervised most of the time they are asked to make decisions they are not prepared to do and working with mental health through a mental health program we find that there is an increase in the number of children who become emotionally upset. Schools have to take in consideration that when providing an educational program for an emotional child. I don't have any statistics but I suppose there are more emotionally disturbed children in school today. There are more learning disabled children which may have been the result of emotional problems in the past. It is a different ballgame today in dealing with going children than it was when I was a principal. And I think any teacher will tell you that.

Q: How did you utilize your Assistant Principal? Did you have an Assistant Principal?

A: I had a part-time Teacher-Assistant Principal. I tried to determine what his expertise was and what he was interested in and I turned over some of the administrative duties for him to take care of. If his strong field was elementary we would use him there if it was high school he would be used there. As a principal in that small rural school system I didn't have a full-time assistant in which I could have given him more duties to take care of.

Q: As a principal what was your biggest concern?

A: My biggest concern - Well, I was always disappointed if there was an increase of children who failed to make satisfactory progress. I think that is the biggest concern of most teachers and administrators that we have those that fall by the wayside and do not achieve as we would like for them to achieve. I reckon that is one of the biggest disappointment for a teacher or a principal and it was a big concern. You can try different techniques by grouping; by departmentalization, but even with all of them you are still concerned with the educational progress of children. That is your biggest concern.

Q: What was your biggest headache?

A: My biggest headache? My biggest headache I expect was having a teacher criticize one of her children to another teacher. That was one of my biggest concerns. so I tried to get teachers to keep confidentially her dealings with any child or hearing teachers say he is just a dumbbell or will never do anything in this world. I always thought that every child had some potential but you don't help him if you put him down at every turn.

Q: What consumed the majority of your time?

A: Paperwork! - I thought it did, I'm not sure that paperwork did consume the majority of my time. Maybe I just disliked paperwork, but I felt that we had considerable amount of paperwork to do and that it was necessary but because I didn't like paperwork that was one of the thing I liked the least.

Q: What would you have liked to spend more time on but other responsibilities prevented you from doing so?

A: I have always liked children and as a teacher, I felt that when I become a principal I could be in contact with children as much as I could as a teacher but I found out I couldn't , and that's the thing I liked least about being a principal. I didn't have that close association with the children, all the time, and I missed that and as I became superintendent it was even worse.

Q: Were you a manager of a building or an instructional leader? Or both.

A: I had to be both. You can turn over sometimes some of the management details to someone else but you can't shrink your duty as an instructional leader. There are times when the person who is the principal must do both; he must be the manager and the instructional leaders for the teachers under his supervision.

Q: What was your key to success as a principal?

A: I don't know whether I had much success. I didn't have many run in's with people that didn't mean I was a softy. I tried to understand people and I reckon I had a quiet manner that didn't aggravate people. I don't know how much success I had and if I had success what was responsible for it. I don't know if I could tell you.

Q: What was your code of ethics as a principal?

A: Well, I tried to behave myself. I attempted not to do anything that I would be ashamed of or that my teachers and students would be ashamed of me. I was honest, I hope I had the integrity that was necessary. my character habits I tried to keep in line. I don't know if I had a particular code of ethics as principal that I could write down. But I tried to be one that would not be ashamed to face people in the community or do things that I would be ashamed of as a school principal.

Q: What was the toughest decision you had to make as a principal? And why was it difficult?

A: I think firing a teacher is one of your toughest decisions because you may be changing that persons life drastically and that was one of the most difficult decisions to make. Saying to somebody you are not good enough, or you are not doing your job. It is one of the most difficult decisions to make especially if that person has a family. But it has to be done for the benefit of the children if he is having an adverse effect as a teacher and this was true when it became necessary to dismiss a teacher on moral grounds and I'd rather not go into that.

Q: What do you think of career ladders for Teachers?

A: You mean by that you move a teacher to principal, guidance counselor, or some other position higher up, that is the ladder of education. I think people should be promoted or climb the ladder of education in accordance to their qualifications, not because he is a good fellow, or is a good golf player or some other qualification that is not related to education. There are certain qualifications a person has to meet. Degrees and so on to climb the ladders, you must have those. There are certain courses a person must have prior to going higher in his profession. I think the ladder is similar to what the army has for promotion lieutenant, 2nd lieutenant, lst lieutenant and so on is one of the best ways climbing the ladder step by step but there is always room for that person who is extra capable and can climb faster than the others and he should be promoted.

Q: I don't believe this question concerned you when you were a principal but I will ask it anyway. It has to do with merit pay. What do you think of merit pay?

A: Merit pay was talked about in the 40's and 50's, 60's and is still being talked about. The biggest problem with merit pay I site perhaps two. Merit pay as I understand what the people think of is paying the person who is doing the better job more than you would pay the ordinary teacher or principal or superintendent. That sounds good, the person who is doing the best job. This can be done in industry easily much easier than it can in education because you are dealing with a product in most industries and our product in education is an educated child. The difference comes in industry and school is the fact that no two children are alike, most don't progress at the same rate. A teacher who has a smart class will expect greater achievements. The teacher who is handling retarded children who don't progress as well. How do you measure the product? This has to be very tactfully done. The other factor in merit pay is who would do the evaluation. In education it would have to be on a subjective basis, partially anyway and there are teachers who are better liked by the supervisor or the person who is doing the evaluation of it. That may be unfair but what troubles me is who will be the final judge of whether the teacher has earned more than the teacher next door. And until they come up with a fool proof method of evaluating teachers. I have a question about merit pay. I could not say I would support merit pay unless I knew what criteria would be used in judging teachers for merit pay.

Q: What do you think of the Standards of Quality, etc., established by the state school board?

A: I didn't have Standards of Quality as a principal but when I was superintendent Standards of Quality came into existence. I look with favor on the Standards of Quality as long as the state takes care of its share of responsibility as well as the locality. Some localities are hesitant to finance the standards out of their own resources if the state does not pick up its share of the burden and that's where the Standards of Quality come into disrepute or not thought of well by the community because the funds have not been provided to finance the Standards of Quality. As I am familiar with the Standards of Quality I think they are good.

Q: What do you think of the testing procedures such as SAT, etc.?

A: When I first became a principal the only test we had for children were the elementary tests and at the eighth grade level. That chiefly tested the ability of the child and the teacher could build the curriculum around the ability level of the various children in her classes. That has expanded to measure what results. I think a certain amount of testing to determine how well a child measures up in relationship to his ability. The difficulty with testing is that many parents do not understand that her child is not measuring as high another and sometimes it is based on the ability level difference of the two children. This is why I question whether it is wise to compare one school district to another in test results because one school may have an entirely different group of parents who are highly educated. Their children have a much higher ability level. To compare that school to another school (ghetto school) for example is unfair. How you use the test results is my basic concern. If you are using tests to determine if a child is achieving to his ability level they are good. To compare one child to another child who has a different level of ability, it is unfair.

Q: What are characteristics associated with effective schools?

A: That follows up as far as test results. One characteristic of a good school would be if the majority of the children in that school would be achieving at the level in which they are capable of achieving. That to me is a measure of how successful a school is.

Q: What advice would you give to a person who is considering an administrative position?

A: A man asked me once what advice I would give him - he was to become a principal. I told him, "Don't make your decisions too quickly. When a problem comes up, think about it, take it home with you, sleep on it, and the problem won't be as big tomorrow as it is today. That is always good advice. Another piece of advice that I learned from a supervisor is to always have something positive to say about the people who work under you rather than always criticizing. You catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar. That's a human relations quality I suppose.

Q: Would you enter administration on a principal's level if you had to do it over again?

A: If I had it to do over again, as a teacher trying to move to a principalship, I expect I'd do it again. I miss the classroom associating with children, as a teacher, but it looked like it was a broader picture - moving to principalship as you could see the total picture of education better as a principal than you could as a teacher. Yes, I would become a principal again if I were to start over again. I learned more as a principal than I did in any other phase of my educational career.

Q: What changes would you make in the organizational set-up of administrative responsibilities?

A: I don't know that I would recommend too many changes in the organizational structure as I experienced them - that's been a long time ago. I liked the way we were organized - set up of responsibilities. I'm not as familiar with how it is organized today as I was 25 years ago and I don't know if they have changed that much. I don't think I can, with any degree of fairness, determine what changes should be made to the organizational set-up of administrative responsibilities.

Q: Can you describe the organizational set-up in your school?

A: As I pointed out I was in a small system and much depended on me. I did not have the assistance that is had today in the large schools. I didn't have the assistance, I had a good secretary. She kept me out of a lot of trouble. She was perhaps the equivalent of an assistant principal because she had worked with me for such a time that she knew how to handle phone calls and visitors in a level headed manner.

Q: What suggestions would you offer to universities that would better prepare candidates?

A: Maybe strengthen the courses that they have in human relations because the people who fail most frequently are those who can't get along with other people. The major reason a person is fired from a job is because they can't get along with other people. Strengthening the course in human would be one thing that might help in training administrators, as well as those in any other job. Depending on what a person is seeking to become the university should give more attention to the day-to-day routine that a principal, teacher, superintendent or supervisor has to deal with. Have the course include some of the day-to-day problems that might arise and how they may be dealt with, of course much depends on the professor of the course - if he has been far removed or has not had the experience of the problems a principal has to deal with - he can't impart what that person should do when he gets on the job. If the professor has not had experiences with setting up, or helping to set up the transportation, the bus routes, etc., in a school system or dealing with discipline in a particular community or setting up a cafeteria procedure in a school. He needs some business to come into a school. It is really a business in many respects and many times that part of the program is not covered at the college level to give them training in it.

Q: Did you feel that central office policies prevented you from accomplishing goals you felt could have otherwise been obtained?

A: The superintendent of the school in which I was principal was superintendent of two counties and I was left right much to my own initiative to operate as I please. This may be good may be bad - I didn't have people looking over my shoulder saying, "don't do this - don't do that." I don't think that anyone or any policies from the central office kept me from doing the things that the staff and I felt were best for that school.

Q: Over the past decade schools have become larger and larger with student population at times exceeding 4,000 students.

A: What do you feel is the best organizational arrangement in schools this large for administrators, teachers, and students.Not having had experience with a school having or equaling 4,000 students I don't know that I'm in a position to give them advise on the best organizational pattern. I know it has to be different then the schools I had the pleasure of serving. I think the organizational pattern for a school that large, the principal would have to have the school divided into segments under the supervision of a supervisor and have supervisors report to principal in charge. School within a school.

Q: What do you feel is the "ideal" size of a school for best administrative instructional leadership?

A: One thousand to one thousand five hundred where one man is in charge because in large schools where you have to have a school within a school some differences in philosophy will occur and too many differences in personalities to pull together in the operation. I feel that a school of 1,000 to 1,500 can be handled under 1 or 2 administrators working closely together would be the best size for the administration and instruction leadership rather than these instructional factories. May not be more economical, but more efficient. All research points to the fact that excellent schools have administrators who are actively involved in leadership for educational expectations.

Q: What are some effective techniques or strategies in which you have used to help you involve yourself - to the maximum - in educational leadership?

A: The strategy I feel in practice is to have a close relationship with your staff and provide that staff with best in-service program that you can provide. Attempt to do for the teachers that which they cannot do for themselves.

Q: If you could use one or two word descriptions, how would you prioritize your activities for most effective leadership?

A: 1st - getting into classrooms as often as possible. That is what I liked best about the job of principal. Getting to talk with the individual teacher and showing an interest in what they are doing. I believe that is the best leadership I could give - showing an interest in the teachers and what they are doing and getting into classroom to see what they are doing often enough so that she doesn't feel uncomfortable while someone is there. I had a teacher one time who complained about a supervisor who came in always with a notebook in one hand and a pencil in the other - sat down in the back of the room and started writing. That is the poorest method of supervision that you have because you have already put the person on guard - "I'm here to see how you are doing." Never go into a classroom to make a teacher feel uncomfortable. Avoid that at all cost.

Q: Did you have a "model" you patterned yourself after?

A: My first principal as a teacher was a woman. Two women in my life if I had to pattern after would be those two. My first principal always made me feel comfortable whenever she came into my classroom. She always had something good to say about what I was doing. She would always squeeze in some kind criticism, positive criticism. The other person I feel was a model was an elementary supervisor. Every teacher in the system felt she was the greatest thing that ever came along. All the children loved her to come. She always had some gadget or something good to show the class when she came and the children always looked forward to her coming. That's a good supervisor when she can have all the children look forward to her coming. "When is Miss coming to see us again?" That person I think would be a good model to pattern after.

Q: Was it unusual for a woman to be in the principalship at that time?

A: This was in the late '30's and it was a little unusual to have a woman as principal of a high and elementary school. I had a little anxiety - in the 30's teaching jobs were not plentiful and I was fortunate enough to get one in this system with a woman principal. She showed me that a woman could handle a school of that size as well as any man, in fact, much better.

Q: Over the past decade, there seems to be a "slippage" in human relations training which went into administration preparation. Do you note whether or not there is a "relapse" into the "insensitivities" toward minority students and minority appointments to administrative positions?

A: I haven't noticed that there is a slip in appointing of minority administrative positions. I think there has been an increase of that in this state, of minority administrators being appointed to this position. I think in most schools that I am familiar with (can't recite this as to my experiences) it appears that the schools are dealing with minority children the same way that they deal with white children.

Q: Do you feel we need to begin again to re-emphasize changes in teachers and administrators?

A: If I understand the question to mean do we need to turn to some of the older practices, I think we have to think in light of what has changed in schools - the students who are coming to school are coming from homes where they are not getting the supervision that they got some years ago. We will have to go back and look at some ways in which the school can take over - be capable of taking over the responsibility that the child is not getting at home. Or taking over the duties not the responsibilities of parents. Where the child is left alone - unsupervised for long periods of time. The changes that I think will have to come, I think, if the school is to take over the responsibilities of parents, which they are not prepared to do. There are limitations to what the schools can do, as far as discipline for the children. The parent can discipline the child as long as it is not abuse but the school does not have that authority. I don't know how far we should go in that but there need to be some changes if the school has to take over the duties of the parent. For example - when I entered the teaching profession the parents would say to the teacher or principal - I want you to teach the child the same as if I were dealing with him. That means in discipline the teacher could tap a child's hand with a ruler or spank him. Most parents would say to the child before they left for school, "If you get a spanking in school, you will get a worse one when you get home." Now that's all changed. I don't know whether spanking will correct all the problems but there were times when it became necessary for me to administer corporal punishment to a child. Not in any severe manner but enough to let him know that that type of behavior would not be tolerated. Now a principal today is limited to what he can do. In larger schools we are bringing children 20 - 30 miles and you can't keep them after school to council with them and punish them. Your parents would not tolerate it. They must give the schools some way to deal with children who will not act in a normal, satisfactory behavior pattern.

Q: Do you consider the principalship in action as more management designed or educational leadership designed?

A: I believe that the principalship today is more managerial than leadership or curriculum development. That is left to another staff person generally. The principal is more manager in planning - he is less an educational leader than a manager of the school or boss of the school.

Q: Would you discuss for us the 5 most pleasant principalship activities?

A: 1.Meeting children in the hall. 2.Visiting in the classroom. 3.Just being with children and seeing them operate. 4.Greeting teachers as they come in and saying goodbye when they left. 5.Meeting with children in groups and individually. I always wanted to be on the playing field when they were at recess. Witnessing the growth of children as they moved on through grades.

Q: Discuss your most unpleasant activities.

A: 1.Dealing with unruly children. One of the pleasant would be if he straightened up after that. I don't have very many unpleasant memories. Most of them were pleasant but I was dealing with rural children and they were always appreciative of what you did for them. 2.Sitting at my desk doing paperwork when I'd liked to have been in the classrooms or out on the playground with the children.

Q: The master schedule determines which teachers have what responsibilities. Did you find it most effective to maintain total control of devising the master schedule or did you find it most effective to have the guidance department control the master schedule?

A: I don't know whether it was most effective or not but I always prepared or had control of devising the schedule of children - of teachers. I felt that it was my responsibility and I felt I was closer to it than the guidance people.

Q: If there were 3 areas of operations for administrators which you could change, what would those areas be? Why?

A: Not sure he understands questions and does not feel that he can answer.

Q: What are characteristics of the superintendent which you found most effective for allowing you the most leeway in operating your own school?

A: I had a very brilliant superintendent. He had great trust and confidence in his principals. He was kind if you went to him with a problem he listened attentively and would help solve the problem if he could. He gave us leeway to use our own initiative. He knew we had the intelligence to run the school that we were in charge of. He supported us and financially he tried to provide for the schools that were under his supervision. He would go to bat for us when we needed it. He did give us much leeway in operating our own schools. It was good.

Q: What have I not asked that I should have?

A: When I retired education did I burn out or drop out? I had spend 45 years in education and thought it was time to drop. I enjoyed those 45 years and right now I have no desire to go back.

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