Roanoke Times
Copyright (c) 1995, Landmark Communications, Inc.
DATE: SUNDAY, November 6, 1994 TAG: 9411080076
SECTION: HORIZON PAGE: B-1 EDITION: METRO
SOURCE: LANDMARK NEWS SERVICE
DATELINE: LENGTH: Long
Roman Catholic Bishop Walter Sullivan was invited to Regent
University, a Virginia Beach graduate-level school founded by Pat Robertson, last month for its convocation to celebrate the ''Red Mass,'' which invokes the blessing of the Holy Spirit on lawyers and legal deliberations.
Afterward, he held a lengthy and lively question-and-answer session with students and faculty.
Most of the questions focused on homosexuality. Sullivan, of the Diocese of Richmond , is well-known for speaking out in defense of civil rights for gays and lesbians. In 1992, he was one of only two sitting U.S. bishops to sign a public statement protesting discrimination against homosexuals.
Sullivan's candid responses elicited arguments from his faculty and student questioners. Here are some excerpts from that session:
Questioner: I would like to ask you a question about homosexual Catholics. As I understand, your public statements have said you want to "mainstream'' them. That is, not to have those Catholics outside the church, but to be helped inside the church. Would that statement mean you want to mainstream repentant Roman Catholic homosexuals, or even those who are not penitent?
Sullivan: I would include the word ''repentant'' if I included that word for everybody else. We have people who are Roman Catholic who marry out of the church, who are married and divorced. ... I would say certainly I do not uphold homosexual activity, and I am speaking in terms of genital sex. I would be totally opposed to that. ...
I firmly believe that a person is homosexual from birth. There is still argumentation that a person can be not homosexual. I can't imagine that.
Homosexuals do not like being homosexuals. That's part of the problem, self-hate, feeling terrible about themselves. The very fact that a person is, per se, homosexual is not evil ... because God made that person that way. If that person is gay or lesbian from birth, how can that person be at fault?
Our church says there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexual orientation. What is wrong is genital sex. We make that distinction. The church does emphasize the ministering, the importance of caring for the individual. I don't think we should be judgmental.
Questioner: I don't think that we should divorce the act from the orientation. Christ did say if you lust after a woman in your heart, you are committing sin. You are suggesting they are born gays or lesbians. I don't agree with that. And even if they were, I don't think they should take part in church or the church should embrace them, if they are unrepentant.
Sullivan: The church in its recent document talks about it as a disorder, but it never talks about being homosexual as wrong or evil in itself. Maybe we make these distinctions that others do not make. Just the very fact that a person happens to be gay or lesbian does not mean that person is evil.
Questioner: I think it's a matter of semantics. We're saying that being homosexual means that that person will desire someone of the same sex.
Sullivan: What about heterosexuals and lustful desire? ... It all depends what we mean about lusting for women in your heart. There is such a thing as male-female attraction. We are sexual beings. Don't deny sexuality. You are taking all the fun out of life. It is most important that we are being sexual beings.
I think we have a lot of stereotyping of homosexuals. You think they are all running around lustful ... I don't know who is lustful in this room. I think we are all decent human beings living out our lives. What I don't accept is stereotyping - ''because a person is gay, they are evil.'' They could be much holier than you or me.
Questioner: You are making a distinction between homosexual activity, which is sinful and not condoned by the church, and what you call orientation, which someone else might call homosexual temptation, homosexual desire, homosexual urgings. ...
I have met homosexual people who have in fact moved into a happy married life. There are organizations that have a great track record ... and there are those who say that is impossible, and there was a note of that in some of your statements.
What you are trying to say is that this is a struggle that people face in life, and the church needs to reach out and minister to them, recognizing their dignity as human persons and help them find healing. But in no way are you saying that homosexual activity is an alternative lifestyle that can be accepted in the Christian community.
Sullivan: Amen. I meet with gay Catholics. And one of the things is that they know that I uphold Catholic teaching. And, by the very fact that I might minister spiritually to a gay person, I get accused of being soft. But the gay community knows that I am not. They know exactly where I stand on that issue.
Questioner: If Jack and Steve are cohabitating and I am renting an apartment, as a conscientious Catholic, I would like to have the choice - protected by law - that would allow me to discriminate on that basis. To say ''No, I'm sorry. I am a practicing Catholic; I do not want to facilitate your cohabitation.'' Do I have that right?
Sullivan: I would think you do. Why wouldn't you?
Questioner: What about that ad you signed in the National Catholic Reporter, calling for no discrimination in housing against homosexuals? Isn't that what I am talking about?
Sullivan: These aren't simple answers, or we wouldn't have lawsuits. I believe that gay people have civil rights. I would presume you would, too. ...
Let me give you an example that I think is terribly unjust: when they took the child away from the mother (Sharon Bottoms of Richmond) because she was a lesbian. That's a real tough thing. That judge's ruling is very unjust because of the natural bond of the mother to child. To just automatically say she's unfit, these are the things I feel are discriminatory.
Questioner: What is the role of the church in dealing with homosexual parents, homosexual families? If there is an active homosexual life in a parent's life, what should the church do, as far as discipline?
Sullivan: Let me reverse that: What is the role of parents who have a homosexual child, whether it is a girl or a boy? You find situations where a parent might disown a child. I don't think any of us would favor that. That's still their child, and you have to give that child the freedom you give any other child. You can't live their life. You're still their parent.
It is a terrible struggle for parents who find that a child of theirs is gay, because society almost condemns them. ...
I remember the first time I ever sat down with gay people. It was in a Methodist church near the cathedral. I was very uncomfortable. When all of a sudden, there was one who was a lawyer. He said, ''If they knew I was gay, I would be fired, no matter how good a guy I am.'' I guess it is ''love the person, hate the sin.'' We are called to embrace everyone.
Questioner: I would buy to a point that there will be some people who will struggle with this problem for their life. But the call is to be faithful, no matter what the struggle is. If your analogy with homosexuals is that they can't change, it would also follow that someone who is violent cannot change. I was a Green Beret. I fought in two wars. I changed. I am now a Franciscan. I live Christ's life now.
Sullivan: We are going right to a person's genes. To say I change from violence is the same as change from homosexuality, I don't think that follows.
Questioner: One of the views we learn in our criminal law class is that the death penalty is not a question of social control, whereby you deter people. But maybe it is a question of something (criminals) deserve. ... The wages of sin are death. Maybe there could be a biblical justification for the death penalty, is that you deserve it.
Sullivan: The biblical writings, they were written at a particular time in history, for a particular purpose and need. You have to see it in that context. Look at how Jesus lived. You should not use the Scriptures as a proof test. You should look at Scripture in all these issues as - How did Jesus live?
I cannot connect Jesus with violence. I am totally opposed to violence. Any act of violence. That is why abortion is wrong. It is an act of violence, the taking of a life. This is my image of Jesus. His message was totally different from his age. The greatest act of nonviolence was Jesus offering his life on the cross. You can't do anything beyond that, a total condemnation of violence.
But all we are doing in society today is increasing violence.
Questioner: I thought you were maybe going to touch on the social-justice trend that comes many times identified with the great movements of the past, which seems to be twisted today, along the lines of a woman's right to choose and gay rights. ...
Sullivan: Social justice is our concern for the poor. I just see an ugliness that is creeping in our society, where more and more people are left out. We're going after the poor. We're going after the imprisoned. We're beating on the less fortunate.
I just find it absolutely astounding, this whole thing of welfare reform. We go berserk about some poor black woman cheating on food stamps. Then we have this silly Star Wars - $ 32 billion down the drain. And everyone kind of looks at it like, ''Oh well.''
We are more and more in a society of intolerance, and that worries me a good deal. How Christian are we if we treat people unjustly or unfairly?
Questioner: John Paul II has said that as long as he is pope, there will be no ordination of women. But I wondered what your perspective would be on long range?
Sullivan: We know what the position of the church is. The Holy Father has said, even if we wanted to do it, we can't do it. My own view would be that the issue is not going to go away. As soon as we say this is the last word, there is another word. ... I would like to see a much more fruitful dialogue.
Some of the reason given against the ordination of women seems unconvincing. Some of the reasons, I think, are pretty light. One is, [there were] no women at the Last Supper. Jesus did not ordain women. The answer to that is: Did Jesus ordain anybody? We believe in the Catholic faith that Jesus named them priests when he said, 'Do this in remembrance.' But did he actually ever ordain? The other thing is, that this is God's will. Well, how do we know?
Now, I am not trying to tilt that I am in favor of the ordination of women. I am in favor of what the church teaches. But it's a question [of] where I would like to see further dialogue. It has caused a lot of alienation.
by CNB