THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
Copyright (c) 1995, Landmark Communications, Inc.
DATE: Sunday, March 26, 1995 TAG: 9503240653
SECTION: COMMENTARY PAGE: J1 EDITION: FINAL
TYPE: Round-table discussion
LENGTH: Long : 340 lines
The violence of small radical groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad has colored the West's view of one of the world's great religions, Islam. So has intolerance in Iran and the Sudan, two nations where the religion is the law.
To help explain the rise of Islamic fundamentalism worldwide, The Virginian-Pilot and public radio station WHRV, FM 89.5, brought together four local authorities on Islam and Middle Eastern affairs.
Their discussion touched on terrorism, Bosnia, the teachings of the Koran and the prospects for democracy in the Middle East. In the end, two themes emerged: Don't judge the religion by those who misuse it, and look more closely at the poverty and deprivation that feed the radical fringe.
Moderator: What are the origins of Islamic fundamentalism now ascendant in the Muslim world?
Steve Yetiv: ... The 1967 victory by Israel in the Six-Day War, I think, is one of the more important developments in the last 25 to 30 years. In that victory, Israel scored a major strategic gain, but in doing so, it also showed that Arab governments were not as effective as they might have been in governing their societies. ...
When we think of Islamic fundamentalism, we think of terrorism and acts of barbarism. Sometimes the popular imagination is ignited in that respect.
But the Muslim Brotherhood and even Hamas, even Islamic Jihad, provide a lot of services to the peoples on the West Bank and Gaza.
Some people have Hamas being funded at about $35 million a year. ... Ninety percent of that budget goes towards social services, so there's widespread feeling that Arab governments have not responded effectively and the PLO also has not responded effectively to the needs of their people.
Moderator: Let me ask Dr. Noor. Do you see the roots of the terrorism that's being exported beyond the Middle East now as religious primarily, or as political or economic?
Ahmed Noor: ... I think that Islam is very clear about the fact that we are required as Muslims to have motivation to be tolerant in dealing with people of other faiths. So I think it is very important to distinguish between the misdeeds and militant activities of some groups that call themselves Muslims and the basic principles of Islam. ...
In terms of the Middle East in particular, the reasons for essentially the movements that we see, the fundamentalist movements, which are yearning for the applications of Islamic principles in the society they live in, is because of - No. 1 - the lack of freedom in most of the Muslim countries in the Middle East. The lack of respect to human rights, the poor economic conditions, the deprivation, the hunger that they suffer from. And also the widespread corruption in government.
Moderator: Do you see the threat of violence from terrorism as a real threat in the United States, as a domestic threat in this country?
John Williams: ... I think it's a very basic error to make this linkup of Islam with terrorism because it's like saying that Catholics are terrorists because you've got Catholics who are terrorists in Ireland. Or that Protestants are or that Jews are, because there are Jewish terrorists, or that the (Eastern) Orthodox are terrorists because of the terrible things that are being done by the Serbs against the Bosnians.
... And another thing is this word ``fundamentalism.'' ... A fundamentalist says, ``I live in a very uncertain world. It's a confusing place. I am going to stand on my religious text. This is what will guide. This and nothing else. I will take my texts very literally and very seriously.''
And this is what all the religions are doing. ... But as far as Muslims are concerned, Saudi Arabia, which has been a very good friend to the United States, began as a fundamentalist regime. ...
``Fundamentalism'' really doesn't cut it. These people are radical activists, and they do not grow out of religious tradition. They are children of the modern age. They are not the children of tradition. They stand against tradition as Nazism stood against tradition.
Moderator: Dr. Rubin, let me ask you, adopting the term that Dr. Williams suggested, do you see ``radical activism'' as a threat to the progress of peace in the Middle East?
Robert Rubin: Certainly it is. The government of Shimon Peres, I would say, is in serious trouble facing elections early in 1996 because the people are so upset with the nature of the violence that has erupted. ...
I appreciate the comments that have been made, and I agree to abandon the term ``fundamental'' in terms of radical or radical activist. But I don't think it's appropriate to disassociate these people from Islam. ...
This sentence from the Koran, ``The unbelievers among the people of the book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the fires of all creatures.''
For a fundamental or a believer in Islam, doesn't that justify taking a lot of action against people in a physical and violent way? ...
Yetiv: I think there are two issues here. One is the religion itself and the body of thoughts that are incorporated into a religion. And the second issue is the interpretation of the book of the different bodies of thought on each of the religions.
I don't think any of the three major religions, or any of the other religions, are bad in and of themselves or have the propensity to motivate their followers to violence. I think the interpretations of those that are doing the interpreting - that's where you can find a problem. ...
Moderator: If we accept that all great religions are subject to corruption by the wrong-minded, the fact remains that there is on the rise in the Middle East a political force tied to a religious force. Perhaps you gentlemen can help us get at the root cause.
Noor: ... Unless Israel and the Arab countries attend to these problems, improve the living conditions of these people, unless we give them a substantial amount of aid to improve their economic conditions, they reach that level of desperation where life doesn't mean anything.
In fact, some of them that I met and discussed the principles of Islam with them and how we should behave as Muslims, their response to me was, their life is not worth living. It is better for them to finish that life. So, it is that sense of desperation. We have to give these people some hope to live for. ...
Moderator: Let me ask Dr. Rubin, do you think that part of the solution to the problem lies in a more enlightened view by Israel?
Rubin: Well, you know, the whole world is sort of fatigued on this notion that we have to look at the circumstances and the poverty. ...
I believe that the terrorism, the suicide bombers, blowing up school buses and shooting into a bus - this is outrageous. I don't care about how bad conditions are. This is unacceptable behavior.
Israel has tried to be humane in its obligation under the U.N. agreement to administer the (occupied) territories. The wealth of the oil nations in the Middle East could have been used many times over to raise the standard of living. The truth is that the life expectancy in Gaza is higher than it is in most Arab nations because the Israeli government has brought, to the extent that it can, better sanitation, better medical care than was accustomed.
Yetiv: ... I don't think economic conditions or the Arab-Israeli conflict or Israel's existence can explain the rise of fundamentalism. And let's look at one good case: the Iranian revolution.
The Iranian economy under the Shah of Iran was much stronger than it was thereafter. Khomeini destroyed the Iranian economy and so did the Iran-Iraq war, which was thrust upon Khomeini but which Khomeini took (on) after 1982 when Saddam (Hussein) wanted to pull out of that conflict...
Moderator: Dr. Yetiv, let me ask you, do you believe the Western concept of democracy has a chance in the Muslim world, or is it even a desirable course?
Yetiv: ... There are a number of different preconditions which promote democracy. ... Historically, if there are good economic conditions, it's easier for democracy to thrive. The lower the level of extremism, the easier it is for democracy to develop. ...
If we look in the Middle East ... what we find is that the economic conditions are not very good. There's not a strong history of democracy in civic society. Those two variables are working against it. And there's also a higher level of extremism than one might want for democracy to thrive.
So, to answer your question, probably not at this time, although in some cases, yes. ...
Moderator: Dr. Noor, what do you think about that? Is democracy desirable or attainable in Middle Eastern nations?
Noor: I would like to start by saying, why should we, in the United States, choose for other people, for other countries, the best system for them? I think we don't want everyone to choose the political system for us in the United States. Why should we choose the system for the people in the Middle East?...
And then second, I think it is important also to mention how the people in the Middle East feel about our response to events there. For example, there were free elections held in Algeria, where the traditionalist - if I may use the term traditionalist - Muslims have won these free elections. And then the military seized the power by force and the response of Western countries, Western democracies, have been either silent about that or in some cases supportive of the military dictatorships.
Well, don't the people in these countries see that we have allowed a double standard? We called for free elections, and then when we don't like the result of the free elections for whatever reason, then we are either silent or support the people who seize them?
Moderator: Do you think that the United States should support giving the government of Algeria to its popularly elected government?
Rubin: ... The reason that this nation did not speak out against Algeria for not recognizing the Muslim victory is that once there is a Muslim victory, there are no other elections after that. We will not see any democratic elections in the Sudan, nor will we see them in Tehran. The repression of the people is terrible.
Moderator: The doctor has raised an interesting point. Let's ask Dr. Yetiv to address this catch-22 ... that any free election in an Islamic nation would be the last free election. Is that a valid concern?
Yetiv: Let me make a point and then I'll move to that.
With regard to Bosnia, I think that perhaps Muslims don't get as much respect as they should get. But I think that the U.S. nonintervention in that case has a lot more to do with the absence of any vital strategic importance to the region. If there were oil there, that would make it a different issue.
Now, with regards to your question, that's another excellent question. ... Democracy's a process, but you don't want a process to culminate in an authoritarian rule which undermines democracy altogether. And that's the fear.
If you look at the debates within ... Hamas, the radical activist movement, you'll find some people saying, ``Well, let's participate in the elections'' world view that they want, which doesn't include democracy per se.
So I think what you'd find was a lot of different variants in the type of democracy that would follow. In some cases it would be snuffed out altogether. In other cases you might have some kind of council which decides who can stand up for election. And in other cases, you may be surprised. ... Democracy, as we see it in the West, might develop in some cases. ...
Williams: ... In the case of Iran, it's quite different from that of Algeria. Many people who know Algeria say the best thing that we could have done would have been to let the Muslims have their election and, if they were going to, then fall on their faces.
Noor: If I may comment on Bosnia. I fully agree that the U.S. should not intervene militarily in Bosnia. I'm not for that at all. However, I think it is very unfair to have an embargo on both sides. The victim is not given the chance to protect himself from the aggressor. So I have no justification whatsoever for the policy of arms embargo against the Muslims.
Now, coming back to the question of does democracy have a chance in the Middle East. ... Iran was subject to a very repressive regime by the Shah. We could not change that regime by peaceful means. We had to go through a revolution.
Well, if we accept the notion that Iran had to go through a revolution, we should compare what the Iranian revolution has done to its people with the French revolution, which we applaud here. ...
Moderator: Are the voices of tolerance, the ``true voice of Islam'' as Dr. Noor has called it, are they loud enough ... in condemnation of those who you abhor?
Noor: Very much so. ... Dr. Rubin referred to ... the fact that we don't have someone like the pope, where he comes up with, essentially, declarations that everyone hears.
There is no Islamic state at the present, and I define the Islamic state to be a country whose majority of population are Muslims and whose constitution is based on the authentic principles of Islam the Koran and traditions of the prophet Mohammed. So there is no Islamic country. ... So as such, there is no formal spokesman for all Muslims. ...
Rubin: I appreciate that you said that, but I want to go on record as not being in favor of another pope (laughter).
Williams: ... There's a lot of different answers, a lot of different voices, very lively debate, and this whole part of the world is cooking. It is very hot. ...
I travel frequently in the Islamic world. What I keep encountering there is fear. Fear of us. That we are going to cast them as the devil.
They believe, rightly or wrongly, that the West needs a demon and that now that the Soviet Union has abdicated the role, we are going to elect the Muslims as the devil and fight them.
Moderator: What (should the) United States' view and approach be to the Islamic world?
Rubin: I don't see this country as the villain in this scenario. I think Americans and the American government have a quick hand of friendship to offer to any nation that shows a desire to join a community of civilized behavior. The GATT treaty, the NAFTA treaty, are examples of our willingness to deal with economic disparity in the hope of bringing an increased standard of living to all the people of the world.
Americans are unique in many respects, and it's not that they need a scapegoat or a demon. Let a nation come forward that the majority of the people are Islamic and they express a willingness to be tolerant and accepting, and they will find more than a willing partner in the American government and the American people.
Moderator: Dr. Yetiv, the U.S. role?
Yetiv: I think the United States needs to define its objectives in different regions and different cases that it's looking at. And then it needs to ask itself if its objectives are critical - critical enough that it should use a carrot-and-stick approach with different groups to encourage certain groups to cooperate as opposed to defect from cooperation, to support certain initiatives which are viewed as positive. And if they don't, then to take certain things from them. That's the stick. ...
Moderator: Dr. Noor, the U.S. role?
Noor: Well, I think we ought to have a consistent foreign policy. I see, for example, that we push the communists before the fall of communism very much in terms of respect of human rights in their countries. But we are not doing the same in Islamic countries.
So I think we ought to have this consistent foreign policy and essentially pressure the friendly regimes to respect human rights in their countries and improve the economic conditions.
Also, I would say that the Muslims in this country should play a very important role. ... I think we should interact more with the society. And it is a religious duty in Islam to have a positive impact in this society we live in. This is very much emphasized in our religious teachings.
Moderator: Dr. Williams, a final word?
Williams: I think that the danger is not that the U.S. is at heart a villain. I'm quite convinced that we are not. It's enough for good people to be stupid to do a lot of bad things.
Our trouble is that we don't know nearly enough about this religion. It's the fastest-growing religion in the world; it's the fastest-growing religion in the United States. And these people are not out there, they're here. I mean, in rural South Carolina, mosques are proliferating among the average American population.
It has been a religion over the years which had a great deal to say to people and, apparently, still has a lot to say to people. In this country as well, we need to study, we need to know what's on their minds, we need to know what's in their hearts. ILLUSTRATION: CHRISTOPHER REDDICK/Staff color photos
Ahmed Noor teaches aerospace engineering at the University of
Virginia via TV from NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton. He is
a trustee at the Mosque and Islamic Center of Hampton Roads in
Hampton.
Dr. Robert Rubin is a Norfolk orthodontist and past president of
the United Jewish Federation of Tidewater. He is a frequent visitor
to Israel.
John Williams, a member of the religion faculty at the College of
William and Mary, teaches courses in Islam. He has lived and worked
in the Middle East.
Steve Yetiv teaches political science at Old Dominion University.
A native of Israel, he specializes in Middle Eastern studies.
Graphics
Research by DENNIS JOYCE; Graphic by ROBERT D. VOROS/Staff
RELIGION AS GOVERNMENT
Nations where radical activists are fighting for Islamic rule.
Iran and the Sudan already have it.
ISRAEL
Rejecting control of the occupied territories by the Palestinian
Liberation Organization, the groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad provide
social services while pushing violent elimination of the Jewish
state.
EGYPT
Harsh government repression of the venerable Muslim Brotherhood
has backfired. The splinter group Gamaat Islamiya targets soldiers,
police intellectuals, and now foreign tourists.
ALGERIA
Talks were started between the government and Islamic Salvation
Front after two years of terrorist attacks. The front finished first
in a 1991 election instead of power, its leaders got jail and death
sentences.
TUNISIA
Leaders point to the failure of talks in Algeria to justify tight
police control. Economic development and social equality initiatives
have slowed Islamists, but political repression plays into their
hands.
MOROCCO
Islamism has only moderately disturbed political life. Among the
reasons: French colonial rule was brief, moderate Islamists have
been co-opted and the king of Morocco is also the nation's religious
leader.
Source: 1995 World Almanac; 1994 Draft NATO Report on Radical
Islamism
ISLAM AT A GLANCE
Founded: 622 A.D. in Medina on the Arab peninsula by Mohammed,
the Prophet.
Beliefs: God revealed to Mohammed the sacred text, the Koran, to
guide humans to the truth and away from Satan. Those who repent
return to sinlessness and go to Paradise, a place of physical and
spiritual pleasure. The wicked burn in hell.
Organization: In theory, the state and religious community are
one, administered by a caliph. In practice, a loose connection of
congregations are united by a conservative tradition.
Divisions: Two major sects are Shiite, or orthodox, who affirm
human free will, and Sunni, who are deterministic.
Followers: 1.01 billion worldwide, almost 20 percent of the
world's population and second only to Christianity, which has 1.87
billion. All but 60 million of the world's Muslims are in Asia and
Africa, with 3.33 million in North America.
Source: 1995 World Almanac
KEYWORDS: ISLAM RELIGION DISCUSSION by CNB