THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT
Copyright (c) 1995, Landmark Communications, Inc.
DATE: Sunday, August 27, 1995 TAG: 9508290500
SECTION: COMMENTARY PAGE: J1 EDITION: FINAL
LENGTH: Long : 234 lines
Virginia and 37 other states - plus the federal government and the military - have determined that some crimes are so heinous, death is society's only appropriate response.
But the United States remains one of the world's most violent nations. Most other industrialized countries have abolished the death penalty. It raises a host of troubling questions - political, practical, philosophical and moral.
In this month's Hampton Roads Roundtable, The Virginian-Pilot and public radio station WHRV put those questions to a panel of four experts: a prosecutor, a sociologist and two family members of murder victims.
The discussion was moderated by staff writer Bill Sizemore. THE DISCUSSION
DOES IT DETER?
David Williams, you have prosecuted capital cases as a commonwealth's attorney. Is there any evidence that the death penalty deters crime?
David Williams: I have seen some social science research. There was an article written some years ago by Thorsten Sellin suggesting that there's no correlation between the imposition or the availability of the death penalty and the deterrence of crime. And on the other hand, there's some social science research by Isaac Ehrlich suggesting the opposite.
So I really don't know the answer to the question. I do know that whatever the merits of the debate, today there's substantial political support for the imposition and availability of the death penalty.
SHOULD THE STATE EXACT VENGEANCE?
What about the concept of retribution? Is that an appropriate reason for capital punishment?
Pat Bane: I'm originally from New York state, and when I lived up there, Robert McQuire was the police commissioner of the city of New York, and he went into office opposing the death penalty. By the time he had retired, he had changed his mind and he supported it, but he said ``not because it is a deterrent - it is not - but because I think society has a legitimate need for vengeance.''
And I have to say that he's one of the few people that I've ever heard call the death penalty what it is. I believe it is vengeance, and I think that the cost of it, both morally and financially - the expense that we go through to have a death penalty - could be better spent on a lot of things that would prevent crime and make us safer.
You're speaking as a relative of someone who was murdered. Jackie Sharpe, you are in a similar position. You are the mother of a murder victim. What is your view?
Jacqueline Sharpe: I believe that murder is always going to be with us. It started with Cain and Abel. . . .
You do need retribution. And I think it should be done on an individual basis. . . , case by case. But the death penalty, in my opinion, should stand.
Williams: I do think that the retributive motive plays a role in the imposition of a sanction like this, just like it does in connection with virtually every other crime for which we seek to punish people for its commission. To the extent that there's any legitimacy to the idea that people will rely on the law rather than self-help, I think it's a perfectly acceptable and valid reason for the imposition of this or any other punishment.
Would not a sentence like life without parole accomplish those objectives?
Williams: It might. I'm not sitting here with blood dripping down my chin saying that we ought to execute everybody who commits the crime of capital murder. However, I do think it's appropriate for society to express its condemnation in the strongest terms of capital murder by imposing the ultimate sanction.
Jim Nolan: When we execute people, that represents everyone in the society. My interests, my values as well as anyone else. . . . Why does it have to be retribution? Why does it have to be vengeance? Why does it have to be emotions? . . .
I would suggest that for some politicians at least, the motivation is to get elected. . . . Where is the moral leadership?
Williams: It seems to me that it's sort of sophomoric to say ``Well, we all ought to take the moral high ground and live our lives the way we think we ought to live them without regard to what anybody else thinks.'' That's not the way this country works.
Bane: You've been talking about polls and how 80 percent of the people favor the death penalty. But those are polls that say ``Do you favor it or don't you favor it?'' In polls where they offer alternatives, that support goes way down. So our politicians could offer alternatives if that's really what people want.
Williams: You're absolutely right. So if someone wants to run on the proposition that ``I'm going to eliminate the death penalty but in its place I'm going to substitute this, that or the other'' and people happen to choose to vote for that person and he offers a bill and it gets passed - fine. We'll live by those rules. But the last time I checked, we live in a democracy, and that's the way it works.
Nolan: But it seems to me your argument was that we're doing this system because if the system wasn't like this, the victims would be out doing vigilante activities on their own and they have to trust the state. The state to do what? To provide some sense of justice. And my argument is, we don't have to just take that as vengeance/retribution. That has to be brought to the table. That has to be discussed.
Williams: People need to talk about it. Functions like this need to happen. People need to express their views and hopefully, maybe someday we'll arrive at a consensus. I suspect we won't, but maybe we'll get closer.
Bane: I would like to make one comment about what I think the government says when it executes someone. I think the government says, ``Sometimes killing is acceptable and necessary.'' I think people hear that sometimes, people who would kill when they've been offended.
IS IT A RACIST SYSTEM?
Bane: The people who die are members of minorities. The people on death row, 85 percent of them are there for killing white victims, and yet about 50 percent of all murder victims are minorities. I think that says something about who we value in this society.
Williams: I don't know that it necessarily says anything about who we value or whether our system is flawed. It seems to me to be an awfully tenuous leap to say well, there are a lot of black people and it seems like a disproportionate number and their victims happen to be white, so what are we doing?
It seems to me that you're ignoring one big factor, and that's black people are participating in the decision on who gets the death penalty and who doesn't. So it seems to me it would be a real stretch to say that everything associated with the imposition of the death penalty is racially motivated. That's just simply not true.
Sharpe: Food for thought: I checked today and I found out that 85 percent of the people in the Norfolk public jail are black. . . . You can come to your own conclusions. I came to mine. But you know, sometimes numbers speak better than words.
DOES MONEY MATTER?
What about the argument that the heinousness of the crime is not necessarily what determines whether the death penalty is considered or imposed, but rather it is the adequacy of the defense? So many people on death row are people who were indigent, their legal help was minimal, they had attorneys who were inexperienced and poorly paid. On the other hand, you have an O.J. Simpson who can afford the highest-priced legal talent available, and the death penalty is not even really seriously considered.
Williams: I think it's an error to suggest that the possibility of the imposition of the death penalty in that particular case was not considered. I'm confident that it was. But the prosecutors there . . . determined not to ask for the imposition of the death penalty. . . .
They were confronted with a case involving a celebrity defendant who many people think has a great deal of charisma, and their evidence was wholly circumstantial.
Nolan: I think the best I would say is, that is just such an atypical case that I don't know what it shows.
Bane: Maybe atypical, but I - again, pure speculation - I suspect that if an unknown person of average or below means had committed this same crime, he would have been slapped into death row.
Sharpe: I happen to have personal knowledge of a case where this person had admitted that he had murdered a person, and he had a public defender. And what happened was, the family came up with enough money to get one of the best lawyers in Virginia . . . and he got the confession thrown out of court on a technicality. On a very minute technicality.
So it does make a difference.
Williams: I'm not going to sit here and tell you that every lawyer who represents a capital defendant does a great job. There are lots of them who don't, and that's regrettable. I wish it were otherwise.
But there are a heck of a lot of lawyers who volunteer their services - they are not well-paid - who work their hearts out and frequently obtain, given the evidence in the case and the posture of the case, a terrific result.
Should a defendant who is facing death be put in a position where he's got to hope that he gets a lawyer who is willing to do a great job for little or no money?
Williams: Well, in a perfect world, the answer, of course, is no. But people without the funds are given lawyers, and it's like any other situation. You can go and hire somebody and pay them a great deal of money and still not be well-represented. . . .
We can't just, because someone happens to be charged with a capital crime, say ``Here's the state treasury, spend what you will.'' There has to be a limit.
THE CHANCE OF INNOCENCE
This week Dennis Stockton, who has been on Virginia's death row 12 years, was granted a temporary stay of execution while the Supreme Court reviews new evidence in his case, including the possibility that the key witness perjured himself. Meanwhile, up in Philadelphia, a radio journalist, Mumia Abu-Jamal, who was convicted 13 years ago for killing a police officer, is attracting worldwide support for his claim of innocence. How do you justify death, which of course is an irreversible penalty, when there is a possibility that the prisoner is innocent?
Williams: We have a system in our country that requires the highest quantity of proof before you can convict somebody of any system in the world, and that is, we require proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty.
We have the best system, I think, in the world. It's not perfect. There is no system I know of that's populated by human beings that is perfect. But no one, I think I can safely say, no one wants to see anybody innocent put to death.
Yet you're willing to live with a system where it is possible?
Williams: The thought of going to prison, if I were innocent, is not any less frightening to me than being executed, quite frankly. So I think that we do the best that we can. ILLUSTRATION: Color photos
THE PANELISTS
``I do think it's appropriate for society to express its
condemnation in the strongest terms of capital murder by imposing
the ultimate sanction.''
David Williams has prosecuted capital cases as Chesapeake
commonwealth's attorney. A Republican, he has held the elected
position since 1989.
I would suggest that for some politicians at least, the
motivation is to get elected. . . . Where is the moral
leadership?''
Jim Nolan is a sociology professor at Norfolk State University
who teaches courses in criminal justice.
I believe that murder is always going to be with us. It started
with Cain and Abel. . . . You do need retribution.''
Jacqueline Sharpe is president and founder of Victims Against
Crime, a Hampton Roads-based support and prevention group. She lives
in Norfolk.
The people who die are members of minorities. . . . I think that
says something about who we value in this society.''
Pat Bane is executive director of Murder Victims' Families for
Reconciliation and serves on the board of the National Coalition to
Abolish the Death Penalty. She lives in Atlantic, Va.
Graphics
PILOT ONLINE
The full text of this discussion is available on the News page of
Pilot Online at the Internet address http://www.infi.net/pilot/
See Page A2 for more information.
KEN WRIGHT/Staff
NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS BY STATE SINCE 1977
SOURCE: Death Penalty Information Center
RACE OF VICTIMS
RACE OF DEATH ROW INMATES
[For complete graphics, please see microfilm]
KEYWORDS: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT DISCUSSION by CNB