Interview with Frank M. Clemons

01/21/1987

An interview was conducted with Frank M. Clemons in his home on January 21, 1987 at 1:00 p.m.

Q: How many years were you in education?

(Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)

A: I spent six years as a teacher.

Q: Can you describe for me what you school was like?

A: Well it was a vocational school that was "fed by five high schools. We received students from grade 8 through 12. Not all the areas had the eighth grade. The students were mainly twelfth graders and we had the students for a half day and were bussed in to our program and bussed back to the home school for the rest of the program.

Q: Why did you decide to become a principal?

A: At the time I became a principal, the only avenue for improvement was in administration. We either moved out of education to get a promotion or you stayed in and worked in administration. I preferred teaching and I wanted advancement like everybody does.

Q: What was your school's philosophy?

A: It has been a long time since I thought about philosophy, but basically, it was that every child have an opportunity to improve himself and to develop his skills to the best of his ability. It was the school's responsibility to do that so that he would become a consumer and a contributing member of society....

Q: And that would also be true when you were a principal of an elementary school and the junior high? I think you are speaking specifically of when you were principal of the Technical Center....

A: yes, that applies to most schools, of course, in the elementary school and the junior high the aim there is to get the student ready for more education. Naturally, the student is going on to high school.

Q: How did you develop that philosophy?

A: Yes, I was Project Director of the Vocational Technical School the year before I became a principal. We brought the Assistant Principal, Guidance Director, equipment, textbooks on board and developed a philosophy. That summer we brought the teachers in and worked again on philosophy. Of course, the philosophy was revised every year as part of our plan to the State Department....

Q: This question is not on the sheet. You had worked with professional teachers for a long time on both the elementary and the junior high and so forth. When you moved to the Vocational School, you were working with a different kind of individual. For example, the person had been in the Navy for twenty years or whatever. Did you find a major problem with that in working with that kind of person as compared to someone else?....

A: Not really, of course, it was obvious that the person didn't have the educational background and the psychology necessary sometimes to work with young people. They were accustomed to working with people older than the students we had, and this presented a problem for them. After a year or so, they began to learn and developed into fine teachers. Some of them were great teachers.... I think that is very true, in fact, at the school now we have several that are non-degreed as well and it is amazing how over the years, you know when they first came there they knew very little in the way of teaching, learning, etc. but now a days with taking several courses, so many a year, and they have to continue that as long as they teach or until they get the degree. Then, of course, they have to renew the certification after that. All of them had to work toward a degree to be certified.... The one thing that has changed about that nowadays is that once upon a time there was a scale for the non-degreed and then there was the professional scale. The present administration has put everybody on the same scale. So you don't have a scale for non-degreed teachers. This may have taken away some of the incentive for these people to actually pursue a degree.

Q: How did you create a climate for learning?

A: This is a difficult thing. It is not something that you can write down, I think, in one, two, or three steps. I think that it is something that involves primarily human relations. My philosophy has always been that the least amount of administration is probably the best as long as you provided that atmosphere for the teachers to do the job. Because most of the learning is done right in the classroom, the only thing a principal can do is to assist that learning and that is his prime job. By doing that and allowing the teacher a lot of flexibility, then you create a condition for good learning....

Q: So you would be in favor of reducing the number of administrative levels to the classroom. In other words, going from the teacher directly to the principal or whatever....

A: I think this could be done by "assist" personnel. I think they could do the job as well as the principal. What I am saying is that I don't think anyone who supervises a teacher should be "breathing" on them all the time. I think they should give them "room" to be an individual and teach in their own way. I think they have to be supervised, but I believe that the more freedom you give a teacher the better they are. If they have the capacity to be a good teacher, they will develop if you allow them "room" to do that.

Q: What techniques were successful and unsuccessful?

A: I mentioned a little of the technique, although it is not really a technique. That is leaving the teacher alone so that they can exercise some individuality and things necessary for training. I tried to do this. This worked best for me and when I thought things were getting a "little slack", I tried to tighten things up. Things began to happen the way I didn't want them to happen. Learning didn't seem to be good.... I think that is true. As a matter of fact, that is basically the same philosophy that we have now. We more or less give the teachers a "free hand" because they know what is best for their students, we feel, and for what is best in the classroom. So we try to capture that same philosophy.

Q: What role did you play in public/community relations?

A: The year that we were developing the program at the Technical Center, I was the primary spokes person for the Center. We developed some slides and other talks for the program. I went out into the community, even churches and to all of the schools. I had the assistance of one other person. We did this for almost a year and, of course, civic leagues wanted to know about the center. Because it was one of the first in our area, we carried this to the community and to the students....

Q: Did you have to establish craft committees at that time for advice?...

A: No, we didn't have the crafts committees at that point. Now they had to come along when the program was started. We had one year to do that and we had craft committees as well as a general committee in the school. Of course, this was a matter of public relations working with these people and, incidently, was probably one of the hardest jobs of the project....

Q: So when the school was actually established in September, 1967, then you more or less got your craft committees involved. Did you receive good support from these people?...

A: We received very good support from that community. Most of the time, they didn't always agree with what we were doing. Everyone had their own special little interest in order to see programs that reflected what they were interested in, and this could not always be done. Primarily, we received good assistance from them. The things that they could do were very limited. They were not allowed to do a lot of things. Remember, they were an advisory committee. Some of them wanted to do more than that. We had some problems with that, but generally speaking, they worked out all right. Of course, not as well as I would like to see them because I think advisory committees can be a problem. Ours were not a problem, but they were not as effective as they probably should have been. It was hard to get everyone involved in the committees. It was impossible for one person to do it all. I just couldn't do all of the meetings and try to assist the teachers with their committees. We had difficulty setting up meetings....

Q: One of the problems that we are experiencing now, and I don't know if it was a problem at that time, is we are having a difficult time trying to "sell" out programs not only to the five high schools but to the parents and other people in the community. There has always been a little bit of a problem with vocational education and I'm sure that you probably experienced some of that same sort of thing....

A: We experienced a great deal of that. The high school personnel were unable to understand what we were trying to do and they thought it was just another program to take those students who were unable to complete a high school program. They were keenly disappointed when they found out that we were not of that type. I don't think they have ever given up that idea. At least, they didn't when I was principal....

Q: Along that same line, do you feel that you received good support from the building principals (high school principals) in the city as far as being able to get into the schools to make the students aware of what you had available and so forth?...

A: They let us in anytime that we wanted in, but it was difficult to get the students as a group to listen to our program. They allowed us in with the other agencies that came in trying to recruit students. We had to compete with DE, ICT, and the other programs of that nature. We were all placed on a stage and spoke to an assembly of the students. This was not always effective. I always thought that we would have been more effective to have the students who were more interested and spoken to them in smaller groups back in a classroom rather than in an assembly....

Q: So really you had the same problems then that we have now. What do you think teachers expect principals to be?

A: It is not really difficult, I guess, to say what they expect. I think teachers expect the principal to be an educational leader and to be a person that speaks for them with the central office and the community and to provide them all of things they need to do the job in the classroom. They look to that principal for the leadership that they need and if they have problems, they expect some satisfactory solution to those problems.

Q: How did you evaluate teachers?

A: The evaluation that we did we had a form for that and I don't recall all the items that were on it. It had to do with the teaching skills, the handling of students, and the handling of the subject matter and the teaching of it on a particular day. We evaluated usually three times during the year for one evaluation. Before the evaluation started, we always notified the teachers that we were going to observe them. Then we would talk with the teachers after the evaluation was over to tell them how they did....

Q: So you really never did any unannounced evaluations?....

A: No, I don't believe in that. I think that the teacher ought to know when you are coming. I think that a teacher ought to be comfortable enough with the principal so that she would not be upset if it should happen, but I think it is best to advise them. If you have a special problem and you are looking for something, then that may be justified. Otherwise, I wouldn't think so....

Q: What about lesson plans, did you require those form the teachers?

A: This was not necessarily a requirement within our school, but it was a requirement by the central office that all teachers have lesson plans. Of course, we requested that they have those and, of course, all teachers did not always do it. Occasionally, we would check them to see that they did have something....

Q: If you had a teacher that failed to turn in lesson plans on several occasions, I am sure that you notified that person of that. Did this reflect in a person's overall evaluation at the end for failure to turn in required material?....

A: I'm sure that any principal would not remember all of the problems that they had with a teacher. If, at the end of the year, the overall evaluation was negative, but I don't think so if everything went all right otherwise.

Q: What techniques did you use to make teachers feel important?

A: That is a most difficult question. I think that you have to treat them in the first place like they are human beings and that they are not just a statistic in the classroom or a number on the door. I think that you need to have a good personal relationship with the teachers and if they can see you in the lounge in the morning, and have a cup of coffee with them or have lunch with them and talk with them, I think that they begin to feel that they are part of the team. Teachers must feel that they are part of the team to do an effective job....

Q: You didn't really single out any on teacher each year. What I'm leading up to, I know that Mr. Thompkins has what he calls the "Principal's Award" where he gives an award each year for "of and beyond the call of duty" type thing. He recognized certain people for achievements during the year. Did you ever try anything like that?....

A: No, we didn't do that. I think it is an effective way to recognize people. All of the schools now have the Teacher-of-the-Year award and then the overall award. I think this is very good. It gives the teachers something to look forward to and to work to. I think it is a good thing and I'm sorry that we didn't do it....

Q: Another thing that he is doing now and it would probably not be successful unless you had several first year teachers or teachers within the first three years. He gives what he calls a "Rookie Award" to someone who is new to the profession, but really hasn't .... that seems to be doing an effective job and doing things....

A: That is good too because most of the new teacher couldn't probably compete with experienced teacher and this gives them something to look forward to too.

Q: What is your philosophy of education?

A: I believe that the future of our country, of course, is dependent upon the type of education we have. I think that any progress we make in our country and, maybe, in the world would be possible because of education. The more effective we do that job, I think, a better life will be provided for all of us....

Q: One of the things that the superintendent is doing now is he is trying all kinds of different ways to keep students in school. Chesapeake, as you know, has probably the lowest dropout rate of the four cities in the area and probably in the state for that matter. So he is making an all out effort to keep kids in school and, perhaps, "feed" kids into areas that he feels or the school system feels that kids will do well in. That seems to be a big push now. Do you have any thoughts on that?....

A: I think that you need to guide students. Yes, I think they need to be given an incentive to do things and guided. I think that is one of the prime roles of the teacher that they direct the students in the right direction....

Q: When you were at the Technical Center I know that the first year that you had a guidance counselor that was available to assist you and to work with students. Did this present a major problem for you and other administrators at the school when that person was not replaced?....

A: Yes, I think the more support people you have in school, the more effective you can do the job. There are many areas that involve the students personally that the administration can't get into, but I think the guidance people can do that. I think you need those people an, I am sorry that we were never provided with those people.

Q: What is your philosophy of teaching?

A: Pretty much what I mentioned about planting the proper ideas in the minds of the students. I think the teacher is the most important person in the school and in the school program. I think that the job, if it is to be done, is done in the classroom. I think that it is up to the support people to do everything they can to provide that teacher with everything they need to do the job for the students. Because if it is done, it will be done in the classroom.

Q: What is your personal leadership philosophy?

A: I touched on that a few minutes ago. It is to allow the teacher "room" to develop on his/her own. In the first place, you find the best people that you can get and you allow them "room" to develop. If there are problems along the way, it is up to the principal to see that those things are straightened out.

Q: What does it take to be an effective principal?

A: I think before you can be an effective principal, you must be an effective teacher. I think that is the beginning. I think all principals....it is inconceivable to me that you could have a principal that hasn't had a successful career as a teacher. And I don't mean a couple of years, I think that you ought to have more than that. Many times people are "thrown" into administration with only a year or so of teaching. I think you really need more than that. You begin with being a good teacher and you must have the training to go with that. Then, after that you must have enough experience to....I think about the time a person retires they probably begin to think that they are an effective principal....

Q: You had mentioned that you felt that a person should be an effective teacher. Are you familiar with assessment centers for the principalship...

A: No, not familiar with that...

Q: some of the local universities,....in fact, Portsmouth does that as well, they have what they call an assessment center. What they will do is to have the candidates for the principalship go through some of the tasks that a principal would ordinarily go through in a school day....some of the stressful situations that you might have to deal with. Those who generally score real well in that are considered for the principalship. That is one of the ways nowadays that they are....

A: Yes, that would be very effective. You know we have had for many years Demonstration Schools that allow teachers to come in and perform for the departments of education....like Columbia University had a demonstration school and probably still does. Prospective teachers were allowed to go into the classrooms and perform for the professors. I think the same thing could work for the principals on a different level, of course.

Q: What pressures did you face as a principal?

A: There are so many pressures placed upon the principal that it is really difficult to name any one. You are under pressure from the students and from the teachers and especially from the community. Then you have the central office that expects certain things. In addition to all of that, there is a lot of reporting that you have to do. This is becoming more and more every year. This takes a great deal of time that a principal feels that he/she should be giving to the instructional program. This causes the whole thing to be a "pressure cooker" for the principal...

Q: The feeling now is that the principal should do all of his paperwork and so forth, before school and after school and should spend the majority of his time in an instructional role-be out into the classroom and see what is going on...

A: That is probably so if he can get it done. I am not sure that he has enough time out of school to do that and that is especially why he needs a lot of support personnel and the assistance that you mentioned before. I think the principal needs that now more than ever. At one time, he could be the only person in administration in the building but that is not any more. I recall having a junior high and I was the only person in the building with 700 students. We didn't have all of the reporting or all of the meetings that principals have to attend now. They have meetings on various levels. They have community work that they have to do. They have to meet with people in the civic leagues and carry on this type of thing. He is a public relations person now more than anything else...

Q: Some members of the public feel that the principalship is an 8:00-4:00 type job. Obviously, form the things that you have mentioned, it sounds more like a sixteen hour day than an eight hour day..

A: That is about right. I think that most of the principals now carry a brief case with them home when they are able to go home. They have to work on some things late into the night so they can get into the classrooms the next day...

Q: Along that same line, in addition to the paperwork, a lot of the principals have to deal with extracurricular activities such as athletic events...

A: That is exactly right. In addition to that, a principal also has to deal with numerous phone calls that he receives from parents who are seeking solutions to problems...

Q: Of course, we talked about that and how you handle those pressures.If you had to do it again, what would you do to better prepare yourself for the principalship?

A: I think a prospective principal should take all of educational courses that he can. I thought they were a waste of time, but after you reflect on it, you find that they are not a waste of time. Sometimes you think there is a lot of distance between the theory and the actual practice, but that comes in time. I think you begin to see things fit together as you stay in the job awhile. I think you should take all the psychology that you can get. Teacher education courses are effective. Administrative courses you must take. He should talk with those people who have been through that type of thing. I think that it is necessary.

Q: How did you handle teacher grievances?

A: You start a teacher grievance with the teacher and discuss it with them to see if you can solve it within your school. If this can't be done, of course, you have to take his or her side and try to solve the problem in the central administration. If it is against the policy of the school, of course, there is not a lot that you can do about it. But, you do everything that you can to solve a problem before it gets out of your school...

Q: One of the things that I've noticed over the years is that we have some faculty members that become upset over certain things and rather than try to resolve the matter in the building, they take it directly "downtown" so to speak - to the central office. Do you have feelings...

A: Yes, I've had this to happen and I think it is a little unprofessional on the teacher's part to do that. I think in the first place that they should take the problem to the principal in the school. To see if the solution can be ironed out at that point. To go directly to the administration, I think, is a little unprofessional. But it is done. I had that to happen. Parents especially like to do that, also. I think their grievances should be handled in the same way. It should go to the principal first and then the central administration if the problem can't be resolved..

Q: Along that same line, as I mentioned, we've had teachers to take it to the central office, but then we have also...The central office would never notify you that a person had come down. You heard it through the "grapevine" or whatever. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that part or not, or any way to resolve that...

A: I think that the only thing that the central administration can do is listen to people once the person is there. You don't say go back and talk to the principal. They could do that but they have a public relations problem as well as the school administrator. I think once the problem gets to them, they have to handle it in their won way. That is not the way it should be done. I don't know how they could get it back to the principal. Of course, they could suggest that the person talk to the principal and many times they do. This is a problem that they can say, "I can't handle." This has to be handled in the school. If that is the case, I think they should do that.

Q: Did you ever fire a teacher?

A: I know that principals have never been able to fire teachers and other personnel in the school, but they can recommend it. I have recommended that a teacher be fired and had them to leave the school because of this. It is not a desirable thing that a principal likes to do. Yes, I have had to recommend that teachers be dismissed and it is probably one of the most unpleasant things that I have done. Unfortunately, one of the things that you run into when you find a teacher that is not doing the job that you think they should, is that they are not doing a good job. THis is invariably the case. They think they are doing a terrific job and, at least, they like to give you the impression that they are doing a great job, whether they are or not...

Q: Now, when we talk about firing a teacher, it is obviously a very difficult thing to do because a principal is required to have "tons" of documentation on that person. I heard on principal say, not long ago, that he was able to get rid of anyone in his building that he felt was not doing the job without going through the procedure. Do you feel that "tactics" of that sort, and I am not totally sure of what procedures he used, but, in other words, he did not follow the proper procedure in order to eliminate someone but was able to get rid of that person...

A: No, I think that it is unfair to the person not to follow policies and procedures in dismissals. I think that you owe that to the person and that is why, in most cases, where a teacher is not doing the job that you don't dismiss them until the third year. I think that is the year in which they would receive tenure and this is a lot more unfortunate, but this is the way it happens. But I think you owe them as much as to give them a chance to hear what is going on and follow procedures. I think that is the way to do it.

Q: How can we improve education?

A: The only way that education, I think, can really be improved is to do it through teacher training. Because, as I said before, the progress that is made is done in the classroom. You can't raise the level of learning until you raise the level of instruction. I think the way to do it is in the classroom. Get the best people you can possibly find and give them the incentive to stay in that work and pay them accordingly. I think we really need the best people we have in this country in the classroom. It is unfortunate that they move out of the classroom, often times, for promotions. I think there should be a way to make them feel wanted and important right in the classroom.

Q: How did you handle the civil rights issue?

A: We didn't have any problems with that. But, of course, we developed our school about the time there were problems. Chesapeake was fortunate in that they didn't seem to have a lot of problems that the other school systems had. When they did have them, they were handled in the central office and were not part of the problems of the school administrator. Occasionally, there would be little "flareups" with the students, but this is a matter of student problems, not a civil rights problem.

Q: How did you handle the busing issue?

A: We didn't have a problem with that. Our busing was integrated at the time we started and it was necessary to be integrated to get the students to our school. They only problem we had, as I mentioned before, would be individual student problems. There would be disagreements among students and color had nothing to do with it.

Q: What procedures should be used before a person is selected to become a principal?

A: I think I mentioned this before that, of course, they have to be an effective teacher. They should be, of course, observed by someone and found to be of the right ability to become a principal, and I think they should be given some responsibilities within the school before they become principal. I think you must have some training type programs for principals. I think these are very effective. They didn't have them when I came along, but I feel they are very good. I think it can give the new principal a head start on administration...

Q: So when you were going into the principalship, you really did not serve an internship or anything. You just more or less were put into the position...

A: That was the case when I became an assistant principal, and, of course, that was a good learning ground for school administration. There was no training of any kind. I was probably observed as a good teacher and they probably thought that I would become a good administrator and that was the basis for selection...

Q: Along that same line, you had mentioned that you were a teacher at Churchland High and that you were assistant principal at that same school. WHen you moved from teaching into the assistant principalship, were you treated any differently by the faculty members?..

A: Entirely different, for some reason and I don't particularly understand it. The principal doesn't understand it probably as well as the teachers do, but their attitude toward you is entirely different. You are one of the administrators now and I have to treat you a little more carefully because everything I say to you now will go directly to the principal. I think you begin to understand a little of that feeling, but it is unfortunate. At the time I didn't understand it, I still thought I was one of the teachers as far as meeting with them and that sort of thing...

Q: Do you think it would be better to, let's say, put you in a different building... What I am saying is rater than being a teacher and an assistant principal in the same building? Teaching in one building and perhaps moving to another as the assistant principal...

A: I think it would be better for you if you were placed in a different school. I know that you would hate to give up those "old ties" with your friends and people you work with. I think for all concerned it would be better if you were placed in a different situation.

Q: How did you handle assistant principals?

A: Probably not as well as I should have. I always attempted to work with the assistant principal and bring him into the overall school planning and operation and not put him in a little compartment by himself and "say, this is your job and don't get out of this." I think that he should be part of the overall school program and "second-in-command." He should do all those things that the principal can do because, many times, the principal, he or she, will have to do them. So I think they should have experience in all those things...

Q: I was just thinking about something that you had said earlier. You were the principal in a building with 700 students and you had no support. WHat I mean by that is you did not have an assistant principal or another administrator to work with you. How were you able to call substitutes, do the textbooks, do the inventory, get into the classrooms, monitor the bus ramps? I am just overwhelmed by that. i just don't know how you were able to do...

A: Well, it had to be done and you moved quite fast to do that. We did, or O did get some help from the teachers that were "free" at that time. You found a teacher that had a free period and this was especially true with the athletic department and guidance. We could get some assistance from them. Guidance people are good at doing paperwork and I would get them to help me with some of that. The people in the "phys ed" department would help with the buses and this sort of thing. Of course, you assign teachers to but duty as you probably do now...

Q: Obviously, you had a good rapport with these people. Obviously, they were interested in helping and, so forth, so you had to maintain good relations...

A: Time makes you forget what really happened, but I would like to think that I had a good relationship with the teachers...

Q: Well, you certainly survived it, so you must have.As a principal, what was your biggest concern?

A: The joke in our system back at the time when I first became principal, was that the central office... that the only way that they knew that you were in the building is that your reports were good, and on time, and properly done, and as they drove by your building your shades were pulled up properly. I think probably the biggest concern that any principal has is the welfare of the students and there will always be problems with the students. Those gave me more concern than anything else. Of course, you are apprehensive about your reports, and community relations, and everything else but I think the welfare of the students was the primary thing. You worry that things won't be right and that they are not getting the proper instruction. You work toward this...

Q: Do you think that there should be an evaluation procedure for principals?...

A: Yes, I think they should be evaluated like everyone else. It was done in the last years that I was principal, but it wasn't an effective thing. I think it was kind of an "off-cuff" type thing. I think it should be a more formalized type thing, like the teacher evaluation. Have someone come into the school that is knowledgeable and see what is going on and see how the principal handles himself...

Q: I know that one of the local divisions...what they do is one of the assistant superintendents or even the superintendent will come out and spend the day or perhaps two days with you See how you handle various things that come up, whether it be a disciplinary problem or whether it be a management type problem that you must encounter. Then there are other school divisions that would use for an evaluation --- "Well, I didn't get any calls, so you must be doing a good job." I personally believe there should be some formal procedure as well...

A: I think that would be best. I think the principal would probably feel better about it rather than to think that someone was "spying" on him during the year, and then would sit down with him at the end of the year and write up an evaluation. I think there ought to be a little more formal contact than that.

Q: What was your biggest headache?

A: There are several of those. The biggest one in the Technical Center probably was the recruiting of students. It was always a problem and you were never sure that you were going to get enough in the type of system that we were in. You, as I have mentioned before, met with all the people trying to get the student's attention and made a "pitch" for them. This was a great headache. Then, within the school, trying to get the advisory committees to function properly was another thing that was worrisome. Another problem that was serious was that you had some teachers that were not performing on the level that you thought they should. There were several of these...

Q: I can well imagine, in fact, the recruiting that you mentioned is tell a problem. One thing that we have been able to do, and this is true of some of the schools, is we will go out and we will speak to all the 10th grade P.E. classes. Some of the other schools might let us talk to the 10th grade math classes. Other schools will let you come during the lunch hour, and if you "catch" some students in the commons area, or whatever, you know, fine, wonderful, but if you don't, then you don't...

A: I don't know how you can solve that problem of recruiting. Now the normal high schools do not have that problem. They have people that...there's really no problem. The kids have to go to school and they are placed in the school within their boundary or area. But in the Technical Center, recruitment is a problem and you have to vie for the attention of the kids and I don't know if there's an effective way to do that. The only suggestion that I would have is that you select the best person that you have to do that within your school. Someone that can relate to young people, that has charisma, and the kids will like that type of thing. If they like a person, if you can get a person in the schools that the kids like, then that school has got to be a "fine" place. This is a starting point...

Q: I think that is true, in fact, that is probably our best advertisement. The students passing the word about particular programs. Another problem that we have encountered with recruiting, is that some of the principals will not allow us to come in, other than at the lunch hour, and the rationale for that, is that it takes up instructional time. But they will allow, let's say, ROTC or student assemblies, that sort of thing, and they don't see that on the same level...

A: It's unfortunate. We did get the same thing. Trying to get a kid's attention during the lunch hour, during his off-hour, is impossible, and you're fighting a losing battle. As I said before, the starting point is to get the best possible person in the school, and the person is more important than what you do, and will have the effect as far as recruitment. Trying to get time to do it is another kind of matter.

Q: What do you think of career ladders for teachers?

A: I think they would be good. I'm not sure of what structure they would have, but there should be some way to make that teacher feel important. Everyone wants to achieve, they want to feel that they're making progress, regardless of what area of achievement they are in. If you can set up a career ladder that will do this, and then pay them accordingly, maybe you can keep them in the classroom and they wouldn't want to become an administrator and get out of the classroom. Becoming an administrator is just another way of making progress. If the person would feel that they are making progress in the classroom, by various incentives, whether it be monetary or other ways, responsibilities of some kind that make them feel that they are important and doing a great job, then I think that this is great...

Q: One of the school divisions in the area has set up a particular career ladder program where the teachers are required to perform certain functions or whatever in order to get on the career ladder. It gives them an incentive, I think, and again, if you don't perform up to par, the you would be removed from it. Chesapeake School Division, to my knowledge, has never done anything like that. Has there ever been any talk about doing that kind of thing?...

A: Not to my knowledge, not while I was in the system.

Q: What about merit pay?

A: I think it has possibilities. I've always felt that every system has teachers that out perform others. I've never understood why someone who is doing a poor job would receive the same pay as someone who is doing a tremendous job. I think there should be merit pay. How it is decided who gets it, I don't know. Knowing the human frailties and all of this, and the people who will making the decisions, there's going to be some problems with it. But I think overall, it should be done. There should be some way to recognize the superior teacher...

Q: There has been a lot of pro and con about this. I think one of the reasons that some of the teachers might be against it is they feel that administrators will be on the committee for selecting those who will go on merit pay. What do you think about the possibility of having the teachers' peers do that?...

A: I was just starting to say that. They should be observed by peers and evaluated by peers and allow to advance on the recommendation of these people. I think you could have a committee of superior teachers to decide it.

Q: What do you think of the Standards of Quality, etc., established by the State School Board?

A: The Standards of Quality were and are well meaning. They were a step in the right direction and I guess the only failing in it is that there was never money provided to do the job. Other than that, I think that the Standards of Quality had probably done a lot, even without the funds. I think they've done a lot to promote the system. I think it's a step in the right direction....

Q: One of the problems with the Standards of Quality has been with the funding of it. I think I read somewhere where the State Board gave...the State Board of Education had told the General Assembly that it would cost "X" number of dollars and then the General Assembly didn't feel too comfortable with that, so they did their own study. They found out that it would be "X" number of dollars. So, whether we will ever get the standards fully funded or not, remails to be seen...

A: They probably should take a good look at the Standards of Quality and try to put in the framework where they can be funded. I think, if you can't fund a standard, than there's no use in having it because it can't be accomplished without the funding.

Q: What are the characteristics associated with effective schools?

A: The first thing that you would probably notice in a quality school is that the students feel that they are part of it. They like the school. They wouldn't do anything to get the school a bad name. They work as part of team to make the school. They are on a good relationship with the teachers. The principal probably knows the students and meets with them and talks with them, as well as the teachers. I think it's just a matter of feeling that they belong, more than anything else, that make a good school. I think the kids can sense when everything is right within a school. You don't have to do everything the kids want, but they have to feel part of it. This is one of the things that I didn't do. As I look back on it now, I see where I should have made a lot more contact with the students than I did...

Q: Well that's one of the things now. There's a lot of research, which has been done in this area, and they have come up with, I don't know, ten or twelve different things, and they say are characteristics of an effective school. If your school has all of these characteristics, than you probably are effective...

A: I think the kids have to take pride in the school and you build this by the association that you have with them, by making them happy in the schools. They've got to feel like they are learning something. I think that is ultimately done...

Q: One thing that we are doing now, is we've established certain clubs within the school. We are placing a lot of emphasis on VICA, of course they had VICA while you were there too, FBLA, HOSA, which is the group with the health occupations, and the FFA. We're placing a lot of emphasis in that area to try to get students involved in the school. I think it creates a better climate, a better learning environment. The students feel that they have a certain ownership, it's their school. That seems to be the thing nowadays is to get them involved...

A: We had a strong VICA program. That was one of the only things that we had that made the kids feel part of the Tech Center. Of course, as they won in the district, and so on, in the state, they began to take pride in the school. But it's a little difficult to do when you pull them out of the home school where their loyalties are, where they have football teams, and that sort of thing. It's hard to make them loyal to a school such as ours...

Q: One thing that we have done now is, we have what we call the ICTP program, Industrial Cooperative Technical Program, where we have a person who does nothing but place students on the job. It's full time person. It has been very successful. As a matter of fact, if you come to the school in the afternoon, you'll probably find that 30-40 percent of the second year students work and come to the school one day a week where they receive certain training in preparing resumes and things of that nature. It teaches them about the world of work. That has been very successful and we have been able to get a lot of people on our advisory committee. As a matter of fact, that has probably been the most successful thing we have done. But it is a pilot type project, it's something new. I think we're the only school that has it...

A: I think that is very good. At one time, we talked about placing our kids and getting the ICT coordinators and others to place them. We did a little of this, but it wasn't as effective as I'm sure the program you have. There's no training ground as on the job training, whether it's technical skills or vocational skills, I think on the job is the place to do it.

Q: What do you think of the testing procedures such as the SAT?

A: I have no problems with the testing procedure. I think, at one time, we were unhappy because they took our kids out of schools at various times, like two or three days, to test them. Of course, the home school didn't feel the effect of this because they had them right in the school. But many times, we would lose a kid two or three days because of the testing program. For this reason, I felt there should have been a better way to do it, I don't know what it is, but we did test within our school at some time. This was a little better...

Q: One thing is that, obviously, the SAT scores in this country have been declining. Some people say, the reason for this is that we give everybody an opportunity to take the exams. They feel that if we had a select group, who were allowed to take the SAT, etc., that we'd see a dramatic improvement in our scores. You have any feeling on that?...

A: I don't really have any problems with that because all of the schools across the country will be faced with the same thing, I'm sure. I'm not sure one will have an advantage over another in that respect. Possibly, the scores are going down. It may be for the reasons that you stated, but I think that's something the school systems will have to work with.

Q: What was the toughest decision you had to make as a principal?

A: No doubt about it, recommending that a teacher had to be dismissed is the toughest decision that any principal would have to make, especially one that has a feeling for people. I care about people. I cared about people I worked with. This is always agonizing for me to even think about letting someone go...

Q: We've got a situation developing this year. We've been told by central administration that one of our programs, the Agriculture-Horticulture program, will be combined into one program, which will be a Horticulture program. So this means that a person with fourteen years or more is going to have to be dismissed. Do you think that the school system should make an effort to try to find employment for this person or just say "this is it." "Sorry, we don't have the enrollment."...

A: I think they should make a great effort to place the person. If the teacher is an effective teacher, I think, a great effort should be made to place that teacher within the system, if possible. If not in the major area, maybe in one of the minor areas. And if that can't be done, I think they have a responsibility to contact other systems in the area, and see if they can't place the teacher. It's really a traumatic experience to lose a job. A person whose career is on the line is going through a crisis. And, I think, they should get all the help they can...

Q: One thing, I hate to belabor this, this same person went back and now has his certification in ICT. In fact, they had told him originally that they could not help him because he did not have another endorsement. Now that he has another endorsement, we are still finding the same thing. There's really no effort to....

A: Maybe if you can get him placed in another system, if possible. There's not always an opening in the system when you have areas as limited as ICT, or something like that. They're not a broad and there's not as many people employed. They're probably filled by people who plan on remaining in those areas.

Q: Were you a manager of a building or an instructional leader?

A: I thought at the time, that I was more of a manger than an instructional leader. I wanted to be an instructional leader, but I would get "bogged down" with the paperwork. The central office and the State Department weren't much help as far as getting me out of the office and into the classroom. I wanted more time in the classroom, to do in instruction, but many times, it wasn't possible. I think you have to be a little of both. I think you should be more of an instructional leader, than a building manager....

Q: As a matter of fact, all of the courses you take nowadays, they want you to be out in the classroom as the instructional leader. In fact, in Virginia Beach, what they have done is, they designated the principal as the instructional leader and the assistants would be responsible for managing the school and so forth...

A: I'm not sure that what you should have is a business manager for the school. Someone that's qualified in business and managing and that sort of thing, and can handle that part. Then you have someone who is strictly an instructional manager....

Q: Well, that seems to have worked for them. We haven't heard too much of that kind of thing in Chesapeake...

A: They are probably doing the same thing. They're probably making one of the assistant principals the manager of the building and the school...

Q: Well, considering for a long time that you were the only person in the building, if I'm not mistaken, too, while you were at the Technical Center, you more or less had that by yourself because you had a person that was designated as an evening principal. It would have been very difficult for you to be able to get out and really be with the students...

A: It was most difficult to get out and be with the students.

Q: What was your key to success as a principal?

A: Probably, whatever success I may have had as principal was probably due to my concern for people. I like being around young people. I like the students, I like the association with them, although I didn't have as much contact with them as I should have had. I like working with them. I like to see them grow. I like to see them make progress and I think, whatever success I may have had, was due to this. I like my association with the teachers. I like to work with people like that. And I think, that was probably the key.

Q: What was your code of ethics as a principal?

A: I tried to not to discuss personal things with other teachers. Sometimes this was difficult, and I know I violated this in many cases. I always strived to keep the personal things personal, as they should be, and not take them to the central office or other people. I think when a teacher comes to you or a student, for that matter, with a problem, they wouldn't like to have it put on the "street." I tried to observe this, in as much as I possibly could, if it didn't need more attention than I could give it.

Q: What are your feelings about the responsibility of the principal for identifying and developing future school administrators?

A: I think the principal probably can play a key role, as long as we take, a future administrator or future principals out of the schools, which we're doing at this time. I think the principal should play a key part in that. We can identify those capable people. He can identify those people that he has given additional duties to and he has observed them to see how they perform. I think, it is his responsibility to see that those people have an opportunity for advancement. I always tried to do this and make recommendations in this way.

Q: Describe your typical work day in terms of how you spend your time.

A: I think the normal day would probably start with a cup of coffee in the lounge and catching up on the "scuttle-butt." I always liked to do this because you can get a "feel" from the teacher on how things are going. How's it going int he classroom and, invariably, they tell you about some problems. This gives you an idea how you may conduct yourself the rest of the day. I try to catch upon a little of the paperwork after that, little letter writing, an meeting with people. Once the school was underway, the kids would be coming in and always, invariably, would have to see one or two. In addition to that, sometimes a teacher would come down with a problem, and you'd have to take care of that. The custodian would be in and about that time, you'd have a couple of salesmen drop in to see you. Most of the time, I had to forego all of that and try to get out into the classroom, at least by 10 o'clock. you would be observing or just make casual contact with the people in the classroom. After lunch, I'd try to get back into the office and catch up with all the things that came in while I was in the classroom. More letter writing and sometimes working on a report and then central office would call and say something had to be in yesterday, and you would get on that. About that time, the advisory committees would call and want to set up a meeting and you'd have to do that. After that, it was back to the classroom. After school, you'd either have a faculty meeting or meet individually with some of the teachers. This would go on 'till about four o'clock, until the building was closed. Then there was some letter writing and contact with the central office or getting into the automobile and driving to the central office, which is on the way to my home. And I usually took care of my contacts with those people at that time. I would be down in the building to about five o'clock and then it was home with my briefcase....That is just a general idea, there are millions of things that I missed because you can't believe the things that go on in a school and they're getting worse. They are not getting easier. I could tell every year, you'd think once you've been in a program for ten or fifteen years, things ought to be routine. It is never routine! Everything is new year after year. The problems are different, the people are different and you just face them.

Q: Out of all that, how did you spend the most time?

A: I don't like to think this, but I probably spent more time on paperwork and that sort of thing, than I did in the classroom. As I mentioned before, I didn't have the help or the support people that the schools have now. All of this job had to be done by one person. It was either the help of the assistant principal or myself. I didn't have a guidance director, at the time. I had to do all the things that guidance would do and the administrator would do. Working on reports for the State Department and the central office, probably consumed most of my time. This is unfortunate. I'd say at least half the work day was given to that, which was unfortunate.

Q: How do you account for your success as an administrator?

A: I think to be a successful administrator, you've got to be, as I mentioned before, you've got to like people. You've got like the students. You've got to be of the personality that you don't get irritated with everything that happens. You've got to have a good contact with the central office, a good working relationship with those people from the central office and keep them informed about what is going on. I think that is basically about it. You've got to get along with your teachers.

Q: What caused yo to choose retirement when you did?

A: I was of retirement age actually, or close to it, but I probably would not have retired as soon as I did. I took a job in the central office, which I had before and had some idea of what it was like. But I didn't realize that I would dislike it as much as I did. Had I stayed in the job that I was in as principal of the Technical Center, I'd probably stayed a couple more years. I was not liking the work I was doing or working in the central office as much as I thought I would. I decided I would retire...

Q: Was your job with the school system, was it very challenging for you?...

A: Not very, there was a lot involved in it, but it was still boring. As I told the Superintendent one time, I'm so busy, I can hardly get the work done, but I'm bored to death. This just about sums it. It was boring job to me. All people don't find it so, but I find it kind of boring. It didn't have the challenges or contacts that you have in the schools.

Q: I want to ask you one more question, before we get to this last one. There are some plans in chesapeake for next year to have a new school, The Center for Science and Technology. I don't know whether you've heard of it or not. This is a proposal that Dr. Bateman has for combining certain gifted and talented type programs with vocational education, to make it a school more attractive. Do you have any thought on that?

A: I think, perhaps, it would make the school a bit more attractive. I think, at this point, the school is probably viewed by students and the high school personnel, or the feeder school personnel, as being a place for kids not going on to college. I think if you had a center that accepted kids with much more ability, you probably would enhance the image of the school. It will do a negative thing, in that, you would not be able to handle all of those students that the schools now feel that you should be handling. That will remove you a little farther away from being able to do that.

Q: What have I not asked you that I should have?

A: I think that you have covered most of them. I'm surprised that you didn't ask me if I would become a principal again, if I had an opportunity. I think, "certainly I would". I wouldn't change that aspect of my school career. I've enjoyed being in the schools. I've spent 32 years there and it was a very good experience. It worked out well for me and my life, it has been a good life. I enjoyed it, and I enjoyed the people and I miss it! I'm keeping busy. I think every educated person is able to entertain himself and when I hear people say they don't know what they can do with themselves when they retire, or that they're bored to death, I can't understand it! I find more things that I can possibly ever do in my retirement. But I would become a principal again if I could.