Interview with Dr. Lawrence E. Graves

10/21/87

Dr. Lawrence Graves retired from the District of Columbia Public School System after serving as Principal of Rabaut Junior High School from October, 1962 until April, 1978.

Q: Dr. Graves retired from the District of Columbia Public School System in 1978. Dr. Graves how many years were you in education as a teacher?

(Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)

A: Approximately eight years as a teacher. One year as a counselor, four years as an assistant principal and about 16 or 17 years as a principal.

Q: Why did you decide to become a principal?

A: Because of my varied experiences as a teacher and a counselor in the school system. I had an opportunity to work with all the teachers in the whole educational program of the school. It became evident to me that I could have a greater responsibility and a wide influence by moving into the area of principalship.

Q: Dr. Graves, how did you create a climate of learning in your school?

A: Well, my experiences go back to my first year as a teacher in Lincoln Junior High School in Rockville, Maryland. All new teachers at that time had to take the Human Relations Course offered by Maryland University. By participating in that, we learned what it meant to look at each student as an individual, each person as an individual, so that when I came out of that experience I was sort of trained or ready to move into a wider area of dealing with people on an individual level. This followed through in my work as a counselor, assistant principal, teacher so that when I became a principal, I knew that in order to have a learning environment, I must have full respect for each person in that school, every child, every teacher, every person who worked. From that I found out that we could make progress in the learning situation. It was based upon a deep respect for each individual- knowing their needs and working with them intensely.

Q: How did you create harmonious working relationships between teachers, administrators, staff support persons and others?

A: My teachers became ... It became evident to my teachers that I had deep respect for all of them. In fact, I knew that there were a number of them who had tremendous intelligence enough to do a job. They were given responsibilities in every area of the school, and they were given an opportunity to do their work without any form of harassment and without close supervision. In fact, goal line guides were set up for them in which they worked and they were given freedom to do so. So, over a period of time, people begin to know that you respect them and in return, this is mutually bestowed upon you.

Q: How would you describe your leadership style? Were you autocratic, democratic or other? Exactly how would you describe it?

A: I would consider myself very democratic-a very democratic person. I remember years before the Union came into prominence in our school system. I would ask all of my chairpersons to take full leadership for their subject area. I gave them tremendous responsibility--to a point, where some of them really complained that I had given them too much responsibility. But when the union came in, this is the same thing they were asking administrators to do. So it sort of coalesced our-my philosophy and that of the teachers and the teachers' union was mutual.

Q: Since you spoke about the Union, how did you handle teacher grievances? -Since we have a Teachers' Union in the District. How did you handle grievance situations?

A: Well, I'm happy to say that I didn't have too many grievances. We followed the procedures very carefully. Every teacher was given his or her due courses in the operating of any grievance. We tried to resolve it before it came to the 2nd or 3rd step. Ninety-nine out of one hundred cases and 99% of the time, in the few cases that we did have, we resolved it at the 1st step. Again, I would have to emphasize in all administrative realms, one must exhibit utmost respect for every person and respect their rights.

Q: So would this be the main part of your philosophy? Respect. Mutual respect?

A: At all times. At all times it becomes evident as you stand before faculty, as you work with them--they are watching you. They are checking you very carefully checking your philosophy to see whether it is in accord with your behavior.

Q: How did you utilize your assistant principals?

A: I really utilized my assistant principals as co-principals. We would divide up a building into , I had two--into really three areas of responsibilities, and were held accountable for them. They would observe, rate teachers. They would have --- they knew that from working with me and I with them that they had to mutually share in operating the school.

Q: Are there any other techniques that you used to make teachers feel important?

A: One of the things I think that I learned over a period of time was to have a personal conference with the teacher and his or her problems--not only in the classroom, but their personal problems. I would go to them. I would talk about situations. I would do that preferable to writing. There were times, yes, I had to write memos to a teacher but as I became more comfortable and secure in my own performance and in myself as an individual, I relied more upon a face-to-face conference with teachers. Knowing my work well, being thorough in whatever I was doing and being honest and above board at all times.

Q: As a principal, what was your biggest headache?

A: Well, it's hard for me to say what was my biggest headache. You have innumerable problems as an administrator. It depended upon you and your ability-your ability to solve a problem. Your ability to work with other people-an understanding of human behavior- was important. So, I didn't have any one, major type of problem. I think that I tried to handle all problems to the best of my ability. Maybe I could say that a teacher who came so poorly prepared, not only in subject matter, but also as a person to deal with other people- that was a problem that we really had to work with.

Q: Which category would you consider yourself most in? A manager or as an institutional leader?

A: I would think ... I would have to say that - I would like to think that I was equal in both areas, but I would lean more to being a manager of a building. I think of myself more as that rather than an instructional leader. Although that was a very important phase of any administrator's operation.

Q: What do you think it is about your personality that allowed you to be so successful as a principal?

A: Well, the mere fact that I went into counseling. I went from a teacher to counseling because of my love for people. My desire to get as close to the problems to work with students on an individual basis flowed right into my work as an administrator. I would work with each teacher. I would know his or her strong points. Essentially the strong points by all means. In fact, one teacher told me after teaching about three years --- she received an outstanding rating. It was so upsetting in one sense but really propelled her to work far harder than she ever dreamed she would measure up to those standards that I asked of her.

Q: What was the most pleasant activity of the principalship? The thing that you enjoyed the most?

A: Again, it would be difficult after serving almost twenty years as an administrator to pick out only one area. I would say that working with teachers on their programs was the most exciting part. Seeing a student grow. To see a teacher interact effectively with her students or his students was a tremendous feeling of success for me.

Q: Did you have any strategies that you used to motivate your staff? I know you mentioned the evaluations and expectations.

A: High expectations was the number one thing. High esteem for my teachers. Giving them due credit for whatever they did. Accentuating the positive, I would say so that teachers would know that they would be rated honestly according to what they deserved and very seldom I received a complaint. That was a strategy to make sure the teacher received credit for what she did.

Q: Did you have a model that you patterned yourself after? If so, what were some of the characteristics of this person?

A: Yes. I had a number of principals. Fortunately, I had an opportunity to work in five different schools before I became a principal and I think that the last two administrator with whom I worked had a level of sensitivity for other people that was far superior to anything I had ever witnessed. Ability to maintain poise in a difficult time. Ability to work with teachers on difficult problems. Being thorough in what they did. Being honest at all times. Having the respect of those around you-- impressed me deeply, so this is what I wanted to do when I reached that level of performance.

Q: Would you describe the most effective assistant principal that you had. What were some of the characteristics of this person?

A: I would have to say that I looked upon--as I mentioned previously--I looked upon the assistant principal as a co-principal. I would evaluate her the same way I would evaluate myself. She had to be thorough in the performance of her tasks. She had to be knowledgeable. But most important she had to have the ability to relate well with people, with adults, students and other employees in the school. I insisted that all of us possessed those characteristics. If you did not have them, we would-work hard so that you would improve in those areas. But one must have this ability to work with other people, to get along well with other people, regardless of how difficult they may be. Most of my principals did that.

Q: If you could change any area in the operations of the organizational set up for administrators, what area do you think you would change?

A: Oh, just before I retired it appeared to me that the Board of Education and the higher administration had usurped the power of a principal for his building. When I entered the principalship, I was told that I was responsible for that building-for every person working in that building. I had the authority to do certain things --to work out certain kinds of problems. It became very evident before I left the principalship that this was not the case and principals were vulnerable to the members of the Board of Education ... the higher authorities. When they took a step that maybe in opposition to that ... they were severely reprimanded and harangued by outside forces. This has led to the depletion of the power, the force and responsibilities, the power to enforce certain things by the administrator. As a result, I have seen deterioration in the operation of the principal in many schools.

Q: What did you find most helpful in maintaining a sane attitude toward being a principal?

A: Being humorous I guess. The humor is always an important thing. Knowing that we are all just human beings--that we are all subject to frailties of one kind or another. Being willing to laugh at our own frailties--that's certainly maintained our sanity-- Not being overly serious about everything that we had to do. Taking it in stride. Enjoying what you are doing.

Q: Were there any characteristics of the Superintendent or higher administration that you found most effective in allowing you to operate your school?

A: Yes. Over a period of thirty years in the school system we had various types of administrators. Those who strongly supported the principal. Those who were politically oriented. And you did feel that support. Yes, I found those who were honest with you, telling you what could be done and what couldn't be done were the ones whom we admired and who were helpful in helping us to carry out our jobs.

Q: How do you account for your success as an administrator?

A: It all goes back to the very beginning of my years as a teacher. That very first course I had at Maryland University in human relations. But it wasn't really human relations. It was a profile of students. We had--every week--someone from the university to come in and talk to us. And we called these case studies. From that time until I ended my years as an administrator, that was a strong focus in my operation with all people. Knowing everything that I could about my job. Having full respect for people. And this becomes evident over a period of time. There's no one you can fool. They even know whether or not you have that kind of feeling for people.

Q: But what caused you to retire when you did?

A: Well, at the time I retired, I had been in the hospital. I had injured my legs playing basketball. I had a chance to think about my career. I had put thirty years in. I had enjoyed it immensely. I had reached the point in your administration where either you go (at least I'm saying this humorously) go up or down or go out. I felt that I had achieved what I wanted. I wanted nothing other than principalship. I loved it. In fact, that's what I got my Doctorate in. Principalship of secondary schools. And after spending thirty years in the school system, I decided this was the time to move on to other areas of education.

Q: What was the toughest decision that you had to make as a principal? And why was it difficult?

A: To make the--Well, truthfully, we made so many decisions over the years. I think always a tough decision is give a person an unsatisfactory rating after a year's performance or to have to terminate a person because of poor/unsatisfactory performance. Because it reflects also, to some degree on the fact that you could not bring this person to a level of performance that was satisfactory to everyone concerned. So that is always a tough one when you have to deal with people on this level of work.

Q: What procedures do you think should be used before a person is selected to become a principal?

A: Well, you know, today, I recently served on the Board of Examiners about four years ago for the last principal that I was selected. (to serve on the selection panel) We checked into every phase of a person's background. We consulted with a number of people who work with you. If there's an opportunity to see a person in operation--that is good. We go to the site where the person works. But it's very important that we know as much about the person as we could. We have goals, guidelines set up.

Q: What role did you play in public-community relations with your school?

A: I lived in the area where my school was located. I was a member of the advisory neighborhood--a commissioner, elected by the people. So I was deeply involved in the problems of the community. And we had monthly meetings. That was in addition to our school work. Of course, in the school, we had committees that worked with the PTA President of the Home and School Association. We moved into many areas-went to many meetings of the community. But I have always worked with the community- as a teacher, counselor, assistant principal. Oh, I've worked in the church with the people. I've worked with the students in their various clubs, attended their dances, etc. You have to become immersed in the community if you are willing to be effective at all.

Q: What is your opinion of career ladders or differentiated pay levels?

A: Well, yes. Teachers should be offered the opportunity to advance in their educational field. This is what we did. We were paid for the number of hours we acquired. 30 hours above. 60 hours above our bachelor's or above our master's. (degree) Yes, teachers should be given every opportunity to expand their knowledge and their experiences. Yes. We appreciate all that we can do to help them.

Q: What do you feel is the best organizational arrangement in schools? In large schools?

A: I was administrator on the junior high school level for all the years I was in the school system. I emphasized really, ability grouping. I felt that was very important--that we could focus on classes that had these various abilities. Of course, I've been exposed to the philosophy that we should throw them altogether, regardless of abilities. I found that was not a workable arrangement. So this is what we have done over the years. We found it to be very effective.

Q: Do you think the chairperson should be given a larger role as far as helping to evaluate teachers in the set up?

A: From the beginning, I treated my--shared many responsibilities with my chairpersons. Because they were teachers at the same level, they were not given the opportunity to evaluate teachers. They worked on programs with teachers. They served leaders in those areas. They were given full responsibility for their particular subject matter areas. They may help the administrator work with a teacher in the evaluation of that teacher. We made sure there was that difference. I think that was part of the Union's proclamation.

Q: What do you feel is the best or ideal size of a school for the best administrative instructional leadership? the best size?

A: I had during my administrative years--the size of the school ranged from 1200 to 1800. I would say that about 1400 for a school in which you want to offer a variable program. You need about that size. I enjoyed it. Anywhere from 1200 to 1400 for the junior high school level. I would say the same thing for the senior high school level. Elementary schools-much smaller of course- about 400-500 students. But at the junior high school because of the variety of programs that were offered, you had to have about 1200 to 1400 students.

Q: If you could use one or two word descriptions, how would you prioritize your activities for the most effective leadership? -the most important?

A: Well, I think I was rated because of - number one- for my respect for all persons with whom I worked ... my ability to organize my work ... thoroughness with which I approached my work ... those were the three areas. The ability and respect I had, ability to get along, to work with difficult problems, thoroughness in the performance of your tasks and your ability to organize whatever you were doing.

Q: Over the past decade, there has been a slippage in the human relations training that goes into administration. Do you feel that we need to begin again to reemphasize change in teachers and administrators as far as training in human relations?

A: Well, I didn't know there was a slippage in it, but if that is true, then you are undermining the very core of one rating the school or any business, school or any organization. You must maintain the ability to get along to establish good relations with all people. To work with people who have all kinds of problems. That is the essence of operating a school. It is understood that you will have the skills to write a program, to produce, to get to handle, manage children, but unless you have that ability to get along with all people, to understand their problems, to work with them, to help them resolve them --- you can not have an effective school.

Q: What do you think it takes to be an effective principal?

A: As I've said before, throughout my talk here, that people have to respect you. You have to respect them and they have to know that from working with you that you are very sincere in what you are doing. That you are honest and above board. You have to be proficient in your work habits. You have to be thorough. You have to be knowledgeable. When you are dealing with people with their problems, they are willing to take criticism if they know you have respect for them as individuals. And this, it seems to me, pervades, permeates everything that one does in the administrative area. All the other things that you may have to do, I think, center around that particular point.

Q: If you had it to do over again, what would you do to better prepare yourself for the principalship?

A: I really can't think of anything better that I could do than the kind of training that I had as a teacher, counselor in the various schools in which I attended, working under administrators whom I highly respected. And I worked, I would say at least five or six different schools. I had 15 an opportunity to be exposed to different philosophies, to different personalities. I just can't think of anything I would have done other than what I went through and the kinds of experiences I've had. I enjoyed them and I was very satisfied with them.

Q: What was your school's philosophy?

A: Well, I would have to say that we took a person where he was--to help that person develop to his maximum potential would be the underlying philosophy in all schools in which I particularly worked. We tried to maximize the growth of every individual.

Q: How was your school's philosophy developed?

A: Well, over a period of time we worked with the students about the various things the school had to do and what we wanted to achieve. We worked with teachers. We worked from that. We worked with our fellow administrators. From that we developed over a period of time, a set of things that we wanted to accomplish. I could list some of the things we have here but-- I would like to state that ... (material not included)

Q: Were there any unsuccessful techniques that you tried-that did not succeed?

A: Oh yes, I would think so. One of the things I think new principals have a tendency to do is to write memos to many of them. Sometimes in those memos, you may put ideas or suggest ways of saying or doing something that would not be appropriate in a personal, face-to-face relationship. As I gained more experience, I got away from memos. I think the memos served as a barrier to effective human relationships.

Q: What do you think teachers expect principals to be?

A: Honesty. They certainly expect you to have integrity. To mean what you say. To follow through on what you are saying. To respect them as individuals. To have expertise in their own areas. Basically, to treat them with respect. To work with them in their problems without judging them too harshly. To help them to grow, I think is one of the areas that a teacher looks at. Administrators should be aware that teachers are discussing them at all times. They are discussing whatever you say, whatever you do. In the long run, they will make judgments as to whether you are a kind of person they would like to work with.

Q: How did you evaluate your teachers?

A: It's difficult to say in a few words how you would evaluate your teachers. You had...of course you went into the classroom and observed them with their students. You observed their classroom work. You had all these procedures set out to discuss with them what had taken place. You worked with them and their supervisors. It's a rather involved process but basically through it all it was a method of helping the teacher to help himself.

Q: What is your philosophy of education?

A: That's very general--very broad. It's very difficult for me to state in just so few words. My philosophy of education is to help every individual, every person in any way possible to develop into a better person through your own educational methods. I prefer not to discuss that at length just sitting here. I think the well being of the individual is uppermost in my mind and that is with all people with whom I have contact.

Q: What is your basic philosophy of teaching?

A: Well, I would say that for me it was as I've said before - my basic philosophy of teaching was to have a deep respect for that individual child-take that child wherever he was and to help him to grow and develop and to utilize all the techniques and all the things that you have learned to do that.

Q: What pressures did you face as a principal?

A: Well, in working with parents, teachers, students, people in charge of you, the Board of Education-- There was always pressure that you do well in your job--that you work well with them. The pressures came from so many areas. They were not pressures that could not be handled-they were pressures that were part of the job. Working with teachers and their philosophies, and their instructional work was difficult. it had problems. Working with administrators downtown. Working with the Board of Education members whose point of views may be different from those on the line- those who work within the schools. There was always that pressure to some extent. And you had to establish yourself and what you believed in what your philosophy of life was. And you had to live by that. The pressure is always to live by what you think is right or what you think is honest and above board and what is true for the educational program you are administering.

Q: Did you use the open door policy for students as well as teachers?

A: Yes. At all times.

Q: Did you have problems with assemblies?- or how did you handle the assembly situation with students?

A: I guess you could say that I was considered a tough disciplinarian in dealing with students. I had very high standards by which they had to live and conduct themselves in assemblies or wherever, and we established that. I think teachers and students alike respected the schools that I worked for with that kind of approach to education.

Q: Did you ever recommend a teacher for firing.

A: Yes. That's part of the job.

Q: How did you handle that situation?

A: Well, you go through all the procedures and steps in evaluating teachers over a period of time. You did everything in your power to help that person become a successful teacher. And when that teacher fails, you felt deep down inside that you had failed to some extent. You had done all that you could do. This person could not perform to a satisfactory level. And this is always a painful thing to have to deal with. This happens after going through many steps -with the help of many people to give service to that teacher.

Q: What do you think of the standards of quality as established by the school board?

A: That's a broad question. I don't think that I can answer that.

Q: Do you agree with the ' students' rights, dress codes, those policies as set by the school board?

A: Well, my personal experience has been that things got out of hand because the students' rights and policies in the D.C. schools started years ago with the accent on students in special programs and they broadened many of the things that pertained to the students in special programs to all students. I guess we can agree that many of the things turned out fairly well but they have been disruptive over a course of time to reach where we are now. I--really didn't find too much wrong with them. I was opposed to board members interfering with the operation of individual schools and this happened on some occasions, but I feel students' rights and so forth, overall, worked out rather well.

Q: What is the biggest difference you found from your early years as a principal and your years just before retirement?

Q: Did you ever recommend a teacher for firing.

A: Yes. That's part of the job.

Q: How did you handle that situation?

Q: What do you think of the standards of quality as established by the school board?

A: That's a broad question. I don't think that I can answer that.

Q: Do you agree with the - students' rights, dress codes, those policies as set by the school board?

A: Well, my personal experience has been that things got out of hand because the students' rights and policies in the D.C. schools started years ago with the accent on students in special programs and they broadened many of the things that pertained to the students in special programs to all students. I guess we can agree that many of the things turned out fairly well but they have been disruptive over a course of time to reach where we are now. I really didn't find too much wrong with them. I was opposed to board members interfering with the operation of individual schools and this happened on some occasions, but I feel students' rights and so forth, overall, worked out rather well.

Q: What is the biggest difference you found from your early years as a principal and your years just before retirement?

A: I think I had mentioned to you before that in my early years as an administrator we were told that we were fully in charge of a building and we were responsible for all areas of the operation of the school and were held accountable by the superintendent and higher administrators. You were given this authority. You were given the freedom to exercise it. I do agree that some principals abused it and as a result the Union came in and there was a big fight. I've never really had any trouble with the Union because I did live by the rules that prevailed during those days. But over a period of time, the members of the Board of Education it appeared to me had infiltrated the area of school authority. Some higher level administrators were carrying out the dictates of the members of the Board of Education -imposed upon the authority of the principals and thereby weakened the administration of the schools. Principals became subject to forces in the community and downtown in the higher authority on the Board of Education which sort of undermined their authority and decreased their strength as administrators.

Q: Did you find it most effective to maintain total control of the master schedule or did you find it most effective to have the Guidance Department control the master schedule?

A: On the junior high school level, many people participated in development of the master schedule. The Guidance Department made their contribution but the administrators, assistant principals and principal were responsible for (during all those years that I was a principal) for the master schedule and controlled it, if that is the word you would like to use.

Q: Did you have any problems with the testing procedures or the types of tests that were given?

A: No. I never had too many problems because the Guidance Department in our building assumed that responsibility. They organized it and gave the tests. If there were any problems with it they took it to the proper authority. I had full cooperation with my Guidance Department during all those years and other people who specialized in the testing area.

Q: What would be your description of an effective school.

A: Well, that would be a very difficult question to answer but I assume people would say that an effective school is a well run school. I think that you would have to have all persons that attend that school say that they enjoy working in that school. Is the discipline handled fair? There are a number of things in an effective schools. Certainly, we look at the scores of our students. If we increase their proficiencies in reading and math, we know we have done some things effectively. An environment that is conducive to teaching and learning. If the administration is firm, but fair and I enjoy going there. Rights are respected.

Q: What consumed the majority of your time?

A: In the initial stages I would have to say establishing the atmosphere of the school. If you are the kind of principal who wants students to live by the rule and teachers to teach by the rule.

Q: Is there anything that you would have liked to have spent more time on?

A: I would have loved to have spent more time with teachers, followed up on their work, have conferences. Basically you did the best you could. It was an enjoyable experience.

Q: If you could change an area in education in the United States, what do you think that would be?

A: I'm not prepared to answer that right now.

Q: Do you have any suggestions to offer to universities as far as training people in administration?

A: Well, I would say this much-- that there must be a strong enthusiasm for administration on the part of those who want to enter into it. The person must have a positive approach to working-with people. Not only in implementing the various philosophies and ideas that you may want to implement for the school, but I would say the graduate school should know that students must have this experience - as wide an experience, as broad experience as possible and emphasize that. I know that you are in the field of counseling. This, to me is a long line which I think is important in working with people. They utilize that kind of background to become an effective administrator. Administration is very complex. A factor. It involves all that you are, what you have become and all that you have learned. And the good way of living, the honest and decent way pervades, permeates everything.

Q: Is there anything that I should have asked you that I have not asked you?

A: Nothing, that I can think of. You have asked me a lot that I can't answer right now. (spoken with humor)

Q: Okay. Well, thank you very much Dr. Graves.