7/9/86
Baxter Hott is a retired Frederick County elementary principal.
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Q: Mr. Hott, as an educator, you have probably experienced many situations that have been positive as well as negative, but before we ask you specific questions in those areas, please give us your educational background, that is, your college degrees and the sequence of your professional growth.
(Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)
A: Okay, I received the Bachelor Degree at Shepherd College. am I speaking loud enough, Bachelor Degree at Shepherd College. I did graduate work at University of West Virginia, University of Virginia, V.P.I. and Madison College. Okay, I started teaching in 1949 at Romney High School. Morgan County School, at Paw Paw, WV principal and teacher at Gore Elementary School.
Q: Over the past decade schools have become larger and larger with student population at time exceeding 1,000 students. What do you feel is the best organizational arrangement in schools this large for administrators, teachers, and students?
A: Since I have been in elementary the last 25 years I don't feel that I can answer this question correctly because it would apply probably to the secondary education. My feeling now is the way they have it set up now is with the middle school and the senior high school is the best solution to the problem.
Q: What do you feel is the "ideal" size of school for best administrative instructional leadership?
A: From the standpoint of elementary school a school larger than 500 students from K through 8 you are defeating the whole purpose of education.
Q: All research points to the fact that excellent schools have administrators who are actively involved in leader- ship for educational expectations. What are some effective techniques or strategies in which you have used to help you involve yourself - to the maximum - in educational leadership?
A: Since I retired last year in 85, I have been thinking about some things, for example, community relationship with the students, community parent-teacher relationship. When you consolidate schools such as they are doing now in any county whether Frederick or any county in the, State of Virginia you are defeating the purpose for community relationship. It gets too large. I don't know whether I have answered your question correctly or not.
Q: If you could use one or two word descriptions, how would you prioritize your activities for most effective leader ship?
A: The most effective leadership in any school is strong discipline, if possible. Teacher/Parent relationship, principal-teacher relationship, and also parent-principal teacher relationship, all three.
Q: Did you have a "model" you patterned yourself after?
A: Yes, sir. Dr. Gordon Sloanaker, Shepherd College.
Q: Did you consider the principalship-in-action as more management designed or educational leadership designed?
A: More management designed.
Q: Define your perceived difference or similarity of management of a business and leadership of educational activities.
A: Managing business you understand now in business you are dealing with adults where in leadership of education you are dealing primarily with children speaking in elementary field. For example, O'Sullivan Corporation probably have 2,000 employees primarily from age 21 on up whereas we have 200 elementary children from kindergarten to the fifth.
Q: What are you happiest to be leaving at retirement and what are your sorriest to leave?
A: The happiest to be leaving would be filling out the forms that is handed down from administration and the sorriest would be leaving would be the children and the teachers.
Q: What are characteristics of the superintendent which you found most effective for allowing you the most leeway in operating your own school?
A: You did not have any leeway in the superintendent situation. The only thing you have in the present situation today is the dictatorial policy, you either do it their way or it's not done at all.
Q: If you could change, any 5 areas of United States Education what would they be and why?
A: The areas that I would change in the United States Education is not so much policy handed down from the School Board whether it is state level, district level or local level...primarily... the local level in past years could handle their own situation whereas now you have about 50 chiefs at the top and no Indians down doing the work. That's the end of the quote. You have asked the question on characteristics. I have emphasized that consolidation now is to the point that elementary school where the identity of the child is never seen. For example, if you get above 250 students in the school you defeat the whole purpose as knowing the child. And that's the main purpose of an elementary school. For example, I have seen schools with 600 or 800 in elementary school, consolidated schools and what does the teacher do, the teacher, especially where it is departmentalized, it is the same as the high school, the child is unknown.
A: You have some in West Virginia, you have some in the State of Virginia and you have some in Frederick County.
Q: Do we?
A: Yes, we have some in Frederick County where they have a population of 700 students or more and the principal has been there 15 or 20 years and he doesn't know the children.
Q: And what about the size for the high school?
A: The size of a high school is different because there is more of an adult state than junior high and middle school. An high school should be over 1000 students and middle school shouldn't be over 700 or 800.
Q: How do you feel about consolidation plan in Shenandoah County?
A: I am not familiar with that.
Q: What in your own experiences did you find most beneficial in helping you maintain a "sane" attitude toward being a principal?
A: Since I was in a small elementary school with 250 students compared to what we have now the only thing in my school was that after I left school, after I had another job to do, usually farming or something of that nature where I forgotten some of the problems in school and that's what you have to do or you will go insane as an administrator, especially in the larger schools. people that do not have something else to do outside of school, especially an administrator, is in trouble mentally and physically.
Q: Is your retirement because of "administrative burn out" or age or for going into another occupation?
A: My retirement was because of age 60 and 34 years. I'm not burned out yet and I work as hard as ever.
Q: How did you handle, the, pressures you faced as a principal?
A: The last three or four years you just had to bend and go with the flow or bend with the twig or whatever you want to call it because the pressure was on and you are rid of the older people because they could hire two in your place. For example, my salary when I quit was: $32,000.00 a year. They could hire two teachers, two good teachers for that.
Q: What was the toughest decision you had to make as a principal and why was it difficult?
A: The toughest decision I made was to relieving a teacher that had been teaching in Frederick County for 25 years. That teacher because of alcohol. She was an excellent teacher but she just came to school all hyped up and all under the influence in some cases and we just had to get rid of her. That was the toughest decision because I knew that teacher when not under the influence was an excellent teacher.
Q: How did you go about doing this?
A: Through an administrative policy.
Q: What advice would you give to a person who is considering an administrative position?
A: Think twice before you do and be sure you look into a county that has a flow of administrative policies and not a dictatorial one.
Q: Would you recommend any other type of research? Are there any courses in particular that would perhaps give the person a better background?
A: I cannot think of any off hand.
Q: Would you enter administration on the principal's level if you had it to do over again?
A: No, No, madam.
Q: How would you enter?
A: Teacher.
Q: Why?
A: Because you are working with the children. Here's the policy now if you are a teacher, a good teacher you cannot be left alone because the door you assume you can close in a self contained classroom is pounded on every five minutes by an administrator or his supervisor to see what's going on. To evaluate you, to put you on the line so to speak, to say that you will have to make the best better. If you don't, we may have somebody else in your place. That policy.
Q: On number 1 under the principal I don't understand this. When we were talking about entering administration on the principal level, were you a supervisor then?
A: Oh, Lord, I did that for five or six years.
Q: You were a supervisor and a teacher?
A: Yes.
Q: Do we still have that?
A: I don't think that we have it in Frederick County, we used to have it.
Q: It is possible to enter administration through a supervisory level.
A: Or as direct as an administrator, just be hired.
Q: I mean as an elementary supervisor ... I thought you had to be a principal before you could go into that ...
A: What did you say now?
Q: Could you enter the administration to be a principal first for awhile and then enter as being a supervisor in a secondary school.
A: You have to teach at least five years before they go into administration. That should be a prerequisite.
Q: You were mentioned something about them knocking on your door, you know, in the classroom. How do you think that they should be evaluated?
A: I think evaluation process is meant to be what they have to day is all right but they overdue the thing. For example, the supervisor will come out and sit in on the class room. They will write up a report. You will sit down in the same room and you will have a different form of a report and you for example will have different ideas then concerning that teacher because you are with them 7 or 8 hours a day where this supervisor is with them 20 minutes a week. There is no way possible that a supervisor can come in and tell you that this teacher is doing a poor job today and for all the time that she is teaching when she sits in there for 20 minutes and you have been with her for 10 years and you know she is doing a good job over the years. And they don't give that consideration.
Q: In other words they are coming in and taking a "snapshot view" of what going on and they are using that over what the principal's saying.
A: Right. Right.
Q: When you say they, you reference supervisors?
A: Supervisors and top-notch administrators, superintendents, assistants, personnel, whatever you want to call it?
Q: Have you ever been pressured to relieve somebody from duty?
A: Relieve somebody from duty? I sure have.
Q: And you felt that they were?
A: Yes, madam.
Q: Besides the example that you gave us.
A: Yes. madam. 8 or 10 times.
Q: 8 or 10 times?
A: Right.
Q: What did you do?
A: I did not relieve them.
Q: Keep them around?
A: That's right, because I only had a couple more years for 34 years and I was going out.
Q: So you were pleased to leave?
A: That's right.
Q: What pressures did you face because of that?
A: Well, this teacher, for example, that I had in mind would do, she wasn't the best but she had a good personality and she got along with the children, she was a librarian, you know who I I'm talking about probably when I say that?
Q: I know.
A: And I actually told the Superintendent for Instruction that I was not going to fire her because I don't hire them, why should I fire them. And if my input has anything to do with it, I should be the one to have the say to keep her on for at least two or three years. I don't believe in this hast decision of things which they do.
Q: What if she would have had ten years to go. How would you have felt about it then.
A: I think that if you would have called her in and sat down and talked with her and got really down to earth with her she would improve, try to improve anything that you would want to suggest to her.
Q: But they did not want to do that?
A: But the thing is they would suggest something would you to improve on and then turn right around and when you did it and they would give you a low mark. One would say I want you to improve in this category and the other one would say that I want you to improve in this category and they would go right over to another teacher and let you observe that teacher and give her a high mark because of the name and sometimes it follows you along the line, you know, your work, see what I mean?
Q: What would you recommend to a teacher in order to play this game in order to stay in the system? How should they play it? Should they just perform when they walk in?
A: Perform to your best ability and keep your fingers crossed and hope that nobody comes in with a bad night before and give you the devil.
Q: So you feel that an evaluation is subjective?
A: Sure. Sure do. Damn, that's enough isn't it?
Q: As a principal what consumed the majority of your time?
A: Filling out forms send down from the top office, whether state, local, federal, district, community. It doesn't make a damn, what it was, just filling out forms.
Q: How long was your average work day?
A: I would get there in the morning at ?:00 o'clock and leave about 4:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. Would you take much work home with you on the weekends?
A: Well, sometimes I would. sometimes. It depends upon the case.
Q: What would you like to have spent more time on but other responsibilities prevented you from doing so?
A: I would have loved to have spent more time working with individual student, the individual child, within the individual room, but just as soon as you would go in to sit down to look at the child and help him in math. help him in geography, help him in reading, writing, somebody would knock on the door and say you were needed on the phone in the central. This parent is complaining. This one is doing that. This one is doing that. The bus broke down, out of gas down the road. Things like that.
Q: So you did not have time to actually sit down an teach kids. Did you have an assistant principal to help delegate some things?
A: No.
Q: You were on your own?
A: You cannot get an assistant principal until you have 500 students.
Q: Okay. Would you have liked to have had an assistant principal? Do you think that would have made you a more effective principal?
A: Oh, yes. Yes, indeed.
Q: In what way do you think that you would most effectively use an assistant principal?
A: Well, an assistant principal take care of all, delegate the authority to him on the paperwork. Administrative duties, that's all they do anyhow.
Q: In a lot of systems, a main responsibility of the assistant principal is
A: is instruction.
Q: discipline as well as instruction. Would you delegate the majority of discipline?
A: No, madam. It all went to discipline itself. When I ran my school, I ran a school with discipline and any child that was punished I punished the child, of course, with the teacher there, you know, as a witness. When I punished a child, I had very little recall on any case. while I was at Gore -- years.
Q: What kind of discipline measures did you use.
A: The first think that I do if a child gets into serious trouble, for example, breaking pencils in the room in the second grade and throwing them back on the floor. I had several children do that in second grade. I would call their mother first. The parents are contacted first. Don't forget that. That's the important thing. It saves you a lot of trouble in the end and then when the parents come in then what you would have to do is the parent would say well this is my child if you have got a strap there now use it on him with the parent right there.
Q: How did you handle parents that did not agree with what you wanted to do but you knew that it was the right thing to do and that was your policy? What was your policy?
A: The parents that did not agree with it, I would say well what do you want me to do with him? And she would say suspend him from school maybe, for a day or depends upon the severity of the case.
Q: Did you have a lot of parents: at that time like we do today in education that interfere with every decision that we try to make?
A: No, madam.
Q: You did not?
A: No, madam.
Q: Do you think, you know, considering the change in the attitude of parents when you were principal to now, how do you think that you would handle discipline problems in this day and age,, you know, your children now are going to have, more, rights and more parents that ...
A: They had their rights also in my day.
Q: um'um.
A: The parents in the rural settlement they think different than the ones in the urban settlement because they will let you punish the child because usually at home the child gets the same type of punishment and the child will listen and you don't have your problems but today it is handed down from above, from the administration office, you fill out this form and suspend him for days and you fill out the forms and by the time that you get all of the forms processed, school is out. The year is gone.
Q: Do you think that the attitudes have changed much at Gore Elementary School?
A: Oh, no. No. It is still the same thing.
Q: It is still the same thing out there?
A: That's right. Yes, sir.
Q: Would you have enjoyed being a principal maybe at let's say at one of the more suburban schools?
A: No, sir.
Q: Why not?
A: Because of parental influence.
Q: Right.
A: Parents want to come in there and tell you how to run the show.
Q: That's how they are.
A: They don't have enough time at home, they don't do anything, all they want to do is, the mother as soon as they get their children on the bus they go to the bowling alley or go swimming and leave the child and the child comes home in the evening and they don't know where to go. They don't know what home they belong to.
Q: Your personality and your style matched well in the school that you were at?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What suggestions would you offer to universities that would better prepare candidates?
A: Children. If the teacher at the university and all of the department heads could visit schools, for example. similar to the one that I came from at Gore, and see how it is operated and let the prospective administrators, teacher that they are sending out really get down and work with the children and forget filling out forms and sitting around drinking coffee of a morning and talking about their dates and things like this and get down to business. people do not want to work anymore. They just want to fool around.
Q: The same thing for even preparing teachers along that same line in college?
A: That's right.
Q: It's: like, you really go for four years and get out.
A: They don't know
Q: and you are not prepared?
A: Right. When you can graduate a couple hundred of seniors from high school that cannot write a business letter how do you expect a teacher that has went four more years of college to come in and do what they are supposed to do.
Q: Do you think student teaching should be longer than the nine weeks?
A: Sure.
Q: than the time that we spend?
A: It should be a year - student teaching.
Q: Would you still like to be a principal?
A: Oh, yeah, I would like it.
Q: Was it your age, more or less, you had to retire? Was that what it amounted to?
A: I did not have to but the point I was at there I couldn't stand many more forms from the central office.
Q: So you had had enough of that stuff.
A: Enough of that junk.
Q: Enough of that junk?
A: That's what you call it junk.
Q: But you would still like
A: Oh, yeah. I like the children and the, students.
Q: But the, system you wish was a little bit easier.
A: The paperwork, yeah.
Q: How old are you right now?
A: I am 60. I will be 61 next week.
Q: When you retired how many years ago?
A: Last year.
Q: Okay. How to you feel about the rule that the state might be coming up with that you have to now have four years of education and that the fifth year is spent, if you were going into education, the whole last year would be spent on student teaching?
A: I like that.
Q: Five years of education?
A: That's right.
Q: How do you feel now we are talking five years of education to be a teacher and in relation to the amount of time that you are putting out into education compared to technical fields? Don't you think that we may lose teacher's to other fields because we don't have the salaries that we need?
A: That's right. That's exactly right.
Q: And now we, are, demanding that you have, to go five years now just to be a teacher at a lower pay scale than an engineer or whatever. Don't you think we are going to lose alot.
A: I don't believe that any parent or any taxpayer in any county would rebel or be against paying higher taxes if they can see the product put out as good. For example, the taxes might increase -- one year but then the parents could go to a ceremony like for example, a rich campus, and seniors come across that stage that can go down to V.P.I., they could go to the University of Virginia and make all A's or M.I.T. or anywhere else in the country and make good grades. I don't believe that the parents would rebel against that or any taxpayer either.
Q: We have another problem right now because I believe that Frederick County we are talking about 800 of the families do not have children in school, therefore, they don't feel that the taxes should apply to them so how are you going to sell your product to them.
A: You cannot look at it that way. You can't say that I do not have any children in school I should pay taxes. You don't look at it that way.
Q: But a lot of these people do so how do you sell them. How do you feel about using the facilities of other businesses as well as education?
A: You have got to get out and tell to people and get down on their level. The majority of the people that are in the driver's seat so to speak, like the assistant superintendent, superintendent, cannot go out to talk to the average farmer out here in the field that pays the taxes in the county. They go out they are all dressed up with their white shirt on and he sits around and looks at them, oh, boy, I am not talking to that bunch of idiots and he goes back to work. Amen, brother.
Q: You haven't had many of your students come back and visit and stop in to visit to say hi, drop in to see you.
A: No, I live over in West Virginia. I have seen my students a lot of them through ... MONEY. When I first became a principal in 19--, 2 or somewhere along that line my pay was $2800.00 a year. When I first started teaching, my pay was $1800.00 a year. That was for nine months and then I became principal and made $2800.00 a year, which looked good then because I brought some property off that and paid for it. Now --- day $2800.00. Now days you don't have anything.
Q: What level were you teaching at elementary level?
A: I taught four years of high school.
Q: How did you end up being at the elementary level as principal? Is that the way it specifically came out?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you specifically want to be with younger children.
A: I wanted to be with younger children. I always thought you could mold the lives of younger children. You cannot mold them when they get to junior high. They have already had ---
Q: Music
A: Music with our service.
Q: Did you feel a need for as principal to have that personal influence ...?
A: Yes.
Q: You felt a need to not only in discipline in your day to day contact with them but also in teaching to be an influence.
A: Yes. Are we still on.
Q: Do you think you have succeeded.
A: Sure I did.
Q: You have alluded to the present school philosophy. What I would like you to do is to make a comparison of the way it was and the way it is now.
A: Do you have a day or two?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't want into depth with that because it might be hardships later on. But anyhow when I first started out as principal in this case as principal at Robert E. Aylor, Mr. Aylor. He had very few forms. For example, we had 4900 students in Frederick County in 1981. Today we have approximately 8000. I think. I am not sure. Okay, we had 4900 students, Mr. Aylor was the superintendent. He had no assistance and he had Mr. Koontz as his visiting teacher in charge of transportation, in charge of maintenance, and in charge of food commodities - five jobs.
Q: Who was that?
A: Koontz. Now you have five or six different people. That's where the money goes. If you want to cut your budget, like for example, not hire 3 or 4 elementary teachers, or 3 or 4 secondary teachers and then turn around and hire 3 people down at the main office, 3 different new people that you have never heard of and give them a new job. That's ridiculous. You are not saving any money budgetwise.
Q: Do you feel the general public has that same feeling as well?
A: I guarantee they do but they are just afraid to say it.
Q: How did you create a climate for learning at your school?
A: That a good teacher have a nice quiet classroom and children that are alert, interested they are going to learn. If you get a teacher in there that chews gum and says sarcastic words, and has no feeling whatsoever for the children and won't give them an inch.
Q: If you had a good teacher then you really didn't need a supervisor teacher? That their own motivation would ...
A: You don't have to go in and sit in the classroom for 25 minutes or 1-1/2 hours to disturb the teacher. You can leave the door open and walk by the door and know exactly what's going on.
Q: What role did you play in the public community relations?
A: Laughing.
Q: What?
A: For example the role that I played in the school in the Gore community was the nucleus of the center of the community. In other words all Gore has going for it now is, I am using that for an example because we were there, I was at Gore for 25 years, and I will use that for an example. All it has going for it now all that is left is a church and a bank. That's all that in the community. They wanted to consolidate and move the school out of the community and that's wrong. A consolidation should never occur in that particular case. I realize in some one room school with ten students. It's all right but not where you have 250 in a community like that. And I told the assistant of administration that, just what I said.
Q: Do you find yourself becoming involved in clubs as a result of your desire or as the result of the administration wanting you to be more involved in clubs or organizations?
A: We never had many hand me downs in those days about administration clubs - we didn't have that.
Q: What do you think teachers expect principals to be?
A: The first thing is to back the teach. The principal should back the teacher within reason that is. If he doesn't, he is not much of an administrator. If that teacher is doing a good job and just happens to slip up once and awhile and I call her in and give her a going over and do it, and put your arm around her, send her out the door and she'll go out and do you a better job. If you hold a grudge against her or put that as a black mark against her for the next 20 years, that's wrong.
Q: Did you also give many teachers words of encouragement and tell them they were doing a good job?
A: Yes, indeed. Everyday.
Q: Was this a slap on the back?
A: How many times have you gotten a slap on the back and told you were doing a good job.
Q: Not too many. There were ... they make you feel better. You just alluded to some techniques that you used to make the teachers feel important. Are there any others?
A: I always gave teachers extra duties sometimes too. Not to the point where it involved any private time but to the point where it would make them feel like they were needed other ... makes them feel great. They would be in charge, for example, of student council or something like that. That was before we had the pay scale.
Q: How do you feel about the trends now that they want to get back to pay, merit pay, master teachers and all that stuff?
A: I think that's all right. I think the teachers are underpaid and that the teachers should get more pay. If that's one way of getting around it. Then that's the way to do it.
Q: Do you think that would create a type of rebellion or hostility among your people versus giving them incentive especially if one is chosen and they, then that one person is even though denied by an administrator they are going to be looking at them differently.
A: I don't think so. The teacher, if you have a school with 20 teachers and you select two teachers out of that group as better teachers than others and usually those teachers will realize it. Those teachers will go by and say she's doing a wonderful job. I just wish that I could compete with her. I have had them say that. That teacher, of course, should have extra pay because she does extra work. You can call it merit pay or whatever you want to call it. All they want to do is chat with them.
Q: How do you feel about the importance of sports and things like this in schools?
A: I think sports are good but I think sports have gotten to the point now where sports are too great, there's too much of it. It should not be like it is, it is to competitive, too much of money-making scheme, baseball, football ...
Q: How did you handle teacher's grievances?
A: I never had any grievances.
Q: How big was your faculty at Gore?
A: 14 teachers.
Q: Did, were they local people for the area?
A: Oh, yeah, within a radius of 10 miles.
Q: They were home grown?
A: Yeah, home grown tomatoes.
Q: Home grown tomatoes. Did you ever have to handle any minority issues?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever have, any on your staff who was a minority?
A: No. I have had a minority, but not in Frederick County, but in other counties.
Q: Were there problems?
A: This was in 1954. ... would say they were colored. This was a long time ago, now they are the majority. ... They are getting a kick out of this. I have got to take a break. Regroup. What is it?
Q: What procedures should be used before a person is selected to become a principal.
A: Like I said before you should have at least 5 years experience of being a teacher. You should show qualities of leadership ... a good teacher is a good leader. That's about it.
Q: What do you think of the testing procedures that are now in place. That you had to deal with?
A: You mean testing with teachers or students?
Q: You can go either direction.
A: I don't like the testing that the state has for teachers now because they are missing a lot of good teachers.... because they cannot pass the test for example in geography or history on the elementary level does not mean that you cannot do anything in math ... that's teacher testing.
Q: You just retired this past year. How have you taken your first year of retirement. How have you adjusted?
A: Well at first it was bad. After you was used to working for 34 years. It's not too bad now. I work.
Q: You are farming?
A: Yes. I am farming.
Q: Did you miss ... the social aspects of the seniors, the faculty, the secretaries, and that stuff?
A: Is that on tape?
Q: That's important too. We have talked about instruction and have talked about leadership and a lot of your responsibilities at times had to do with busing. Did you ever have any major problems with busing and, if so, give us some of the worst and the best?
A: Busing is bad. Busing is bad. It's getting worse ever year. For example, it used to be that one bus would stop going out Route 60 west to pick up a child and then probably 200 yards down the road he had to stop again to pick up a child again, and we used to ask them would they please walk to middle and he can make it in one stop. Oh, no. I cannot do that. We have our rights. We want you to stop at his mail box. and his mail box, and his mail box, and, of course, we had to do that. The more stops you make the less time you had in school.
Q: What have I not asked that I should have asked?
A: You have covered it pretty thoroughly. Ask me a question, first.
Q: Do you feel that the evaluation that's as administered on elementary teachers ...
A: In Frederick County?
Q: In Frederick County versus secondary teachers is harder?
A: From what I can gather from talking to secondary people, secondary teachers. Their observation in evaluation is: not nearly as severe as the elementary. The elementary is 200%, percentage-wise, greater and more, complex than secondary or junior high or middle ...
Q: Why is that?
A: Because of the administration's policy.
Q: They feel that they need to evaluate their elementary versus secondary at a stricter level?
A: That's right. Sure do.
Q: What the reasons.. Do you agree with that?
A: Yes, indeed. I think they should look into, I don't think the secondary when you are evaluating, from I can gather from talking to teachers in biology or government it's not near as severe as going down to fifth grade.
Q: Do you think that's fair?
A: No, it's not fair.
Q: What do you think should be done to alleviate this difference?
A: Go easy on the elementary, bring them the same group as the secondary.
Q: But you said before that you felt it important to have it stricter?
A: It's important to have but not to the point they are at now in Frederick County, no way. These people are shaking in their boots, these elementary teachers.
Q: Do you feel, ah ...
A: They are scared to death.
Q: It sounds like you are saying that the elementary teachers may have some basis for a grievance?
A: That's right, they would have. That's right.
Q: And that's based on your administrative observation?
A: That's right, right.
Q: But the emphasis is on more on elementary teachers is that because at the elementary level the children are being molded ... of what is going on around them?
A: You can mold a child then.
Q: Thank you for your time and cooperation in providing valuable data research for VPI and SU.
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