Interview with R.Dean Kilby

10/8/87

This is an oral history interview with Mr. R. Dean Kilby, who was an educator in Prince William County from the mid 1930's through 1987. Mr. Kilby and I are sitting in his new Tri-Care Children's Learning Cen ter and I am asking Mr. Kilby to give me a summary of his education ca reer and also his administrative experiences throughout Prince William County.

Q: Where were you born and raised and what did your parents do for a living?

(Streamed audio file of interview for this question using RealPlayer)

A: I was born in Grayson County which is a little county way over in southwestern Virginia. At that time it was a little place called Rugby, Virginia. I came from a big family and my mom and dad lived on a farm. However, my dad didn't do much farming. The kids did the farming and Dad worked for the State Department. He helped in developing, organi zing and planning roads.

Q: How would you describe the America in which you were raised?

A: The environment was as real as you could possibly be with one room schools and country roads. You had to walk probably five miles to the nearest elementary school. From there you had to walk another mile to catch a bus to ride fifty miles to the high school. The high school was way down in the woods of North Carolina. It was not that big of a spot. The school was called Virginia-Carolina High School. It's on the line of both Virginia and North Carolina and because of that both states were taxed by the high school.

Q: What early influences directed you to a career in education?

A: After serving in the Navy I came back and went to a private school. As a youth in private school, that along with two other people directed me to a career in education. My grandmother had been a teacher and my mother had been a teacher before she was married. Now when I say they had been teachers I mean without a license to teach but they taught high school for a year I guess. It's really hard to say.

Q: What competing career interests did you have, if any?

A: I had lots of competing interests. At one time I was more inter ested since I came from a farm and was going to VPI in the agricultural field. This was because I had a wonderful Mr. Reynolds as an agricul tural teacher and his son would also educate me. He wanted us to go into animal husbandry. That was a competing interest but I guess there never was anything but interest. There was interest in anything that came out of our summers and winters. And there was interest in every kind of hard job you can think of. I quit teaching twice and did something else. I went to Chrysler Corporation and worked. I got trained as a bits and dye expert, which is where you decide what size hole ought to be drilled for certain kinds of structures on a car. Then you had to decide what kind of angle you put on those. After that, you wrote it up and then sent it down to be cut for the sizes. I worked for them for a while and I did not like it. I guess that was because it was monotanous after the first six weeks. Imagine doing the same thing over and over and over again.

Q: Would you describe your educational background and highlight the areas that best prepared you for a career in educational admini- stration?

A: Oh my goodness, let's see, my educational background would be such as when I went to Emory and Henry College. I guess I only had one thing in mind and that was to teach. At Emory I got a degree in something called Bachelor's of Education. Everybody always asked what was your degree in? Was it in language arts, social studies or science? I had to say no, it was in education and so called a Bachelor's of Education.
I guess one of the things that was helpful more than anything else was the fact that I was not only teaching but going to school at the same time. So I was giving some preparable experiences along with taking the college credits. And so that was one thing that helped me for being a teacher.
After having taught in those schools that I explained to you, such as being the head teacher and having to be starting up new things be- cause of that, I got acquainted with a lot of administrative type things. If you're the only teacher in a one room school, you have to do all of those type of things. So that along with having taught for seven years, I went back and got my Master's in school administration. And then, not only did I get that degree in administration, but I took any class that the county offered. Any classes that I heard had anything to do with administration, curriculum or supervision I took. I also volunteered or got selected, I'm not sure which it was, for committees. Any time some one wanted something done I was the one to do it. I think that helped me in preparing myself because you got to look at administration in terms of not only administration but also some supervision and a good knowledge of the curriculum. I knew that and I got involved in it as much as I could.

Q: Did you serve in the military service, and if so, how did this ex perience influene your career?

A: Yes, I was in the service but this was a kindly interruption of my high school days because I volunteered during World War II and went in- to the Navy. All the time that I was in the Navy I was taking any class they had to offer that I could take. I served for three years on a battleship and had some responsibilities of my own. I was in charge of one whole sixteen inch turret at one point. And doing that deals with people, organization and planning. This helped me decide that I wanted to do something when I got out. That was why I got out. I could have stayed in the Navy but I got out because I wanted to go back to school. I knew I could get into Emory and Henry College if I was ready and I felt that I was. So in all I spent a little over three years in the Navy and I had some pretty interesting experiences while there. Our battle ship was beside the battleship Missouri. The Japenses Treaty was signed on the Missouri and our ship was the sister ship to the Missouri. How ever, we didn't get the glory that they got because we had to sit off to the side and just watch them go aboard and sign the peace treaty.

Q: Were there specific individuals who served as models or influenced you to enter administration?

A: There were two or three people whom I'm going to list by name. After that I will list them by style. Arthur Parr would be number one. He had a dictatorial style. And from his style I chose those things that I liked. Antother person would have to be Studart Belville. He was the superintendent and he had a different kind of administrative style. His was one of highly well-organized people oriented type person and he took his easy time to be sure that what he said was going to be something that he could live with. Whatever was established was established after he looked at policies, rules and regulations. It was to the point that he knew they were going to be best. Now the number three person would be a curriculum guy and that was Claude Dehaven who saw kids as not being something outside the curriculum but something as a part of it. He saw the curriculum happening with kids in terms of their needs and meeting their needs. He wanted to take them where they were not taking them selves and he didn't expect more than they were able to give. But he did expect them to give all that they had. Claude was a different type person. He was an administrator and supervisor but he was warm, friendly, open, caring and interested in curriculum. And he was very interested in the kids. I believe those are three different styles and I liked all three of them.

Q: What, if any, significant events that you have not yet described influenced your career decisions?

A: There were lots of events. When I think of career decisions I am talking about administrative career decisions. At the time I first be- came an administrator there was lots of overcrowdedness. There was also lots of concerns about the changes that were going to take place in Prince William County and the changes were meant for growth. Prince William County had been a rural school system and they were talking about change. Anytime there is a change or anytime there was a new development, I was always interested in it. I was interested even when it was the year-round school issue. Whatever it was I was interested. I guess that one of the things that influenced me to become a principal was that I was going to get to open a brand new school in a brand new community and I was to start from scratch and be able to develop on my own. I was given that opportunity and told that I could go with that school where there really wasn't a whole lot. There wasn't a textbook system so I had to develop my own. That meant that parents had to buy their own textbooks and I had an opportunity to open that as a rookie school. There also wasn't a cafeteria in that school. I was told that I could develop and operate a cafeteria on my own. There wasn't a library system either and I was told I could do what I wanted. There were a half dozen things at that time that I was told I could do if I wanted too and I really wanted to do them all. I guess that was the big influence - being able to create and generate things from nothing.

Q: Now I want to shift from a little bit of a biographical area into more of the leadership and a little of the philosophy. I want to know about the things that you addressed from your own personal stand point. How did you feel about education? How many years were you in education? And how many years were spent as a teacher?

A: I guess I spent probably eight years just strictly as a teacher. And then a combination of teacher and principal for about three years. I spent thirty-one years as an administrator.

Q: Why did you decide to become a principal?

A: The very first time, and I want to tell you honestly, had to do with money. That's a terrible thing but that was an advancement. Of course, that wasn't all there was to it. I would have taken it even if I was going to make a teacher's salary. I guess at that time it was the chal lenge to do something different than having the regular routine of the classroom. The challenge was the ability to organize and commit your own. Since it was a new school I was going to have, the opportunities would be there to do just that. And that was the biggest reason for my becoming a principal.

Q: What events led you to take a principal's position?

A: What caused me to take a principal's position was because people were telling me at that time that it was going to be difficult for any- body. They were saying it's a community where parents don't like or care. They were saying parents are not going to get involved and I knew that wasn't true. Parents are pretty much the same wherever you go. I say that they respond pretty much to your style and if you go into the com munity saying that I don't like the parents, and you might not like them. But I guess what really led me to it was that I got encouraged and pushed a little bit by the superintendent and by my principal.

Q: What was your school's philosophy?

A: At that time it was very simple. It was as simple as it could be. It's finding out first where the kids are and knowing exactly where they were working, what they can do and then plan the curriculum from there up. You take them where they are and move them as far and as fast as they can go. Now since that time, we explain what that all means. Back then, that was it. You actually take the kides wherever they are and we certainly did do that. At times we got criticized for that because you get some homogenour grouping. And we had enough kids to do that. But, we found out some other ways to do that and still take the kids from where they are. Finding other ways came much later.

Q: How was your school's philosophy developed? How did you set about establishing or developing your school's philosophy?

A: I'm going to be honest with you. I went in and told them what my philosophy was first. It was the staff that I told first. Now whether or not they bought that I didn't really care because I gave them an opp ortunity always to add to it or change it or discuss it with me. But now my philosophy has changed some. I'm not usre what philosophy is for sure. I will say this, it has changed some because society has changed. The schools in which you work have changed some, but basically if you just go right back to that first philosophy - finding out where the kids are, assess where they are and plan the program around it. Now I don't care what kind of philosophy others have because basically you're going to go back to those. Teachers need to get involved in helping develop the philosophy. I encourage that as long as they can show me how they are going to implement it and that it's build around the fact that it is good for the kids. You have to be careful when you build a philos ophy. It can happen that you build one that's good for the teachers and staff and not the kids. Kids have to be first.

Q: How did you create a climate for learning? How did you develop that climate with the staff?

A: Communication is always the first step for a good climate. When I say communication I'm not talking about a one way communication. I'm not talking about just a two way communication. I'm going to talk about a four way communication. Four way means teacher-principal, principal students, students-teachers, parents-teachers and parents-princiapl. If all those four groups are not communicating effectively, I can promise you that you won't have a good climate. Number one is that. Number two is to be honest about what is going on. Don't be afraid for parents to come in and find out that you're doing something wrong because they're going to know it whether you're afraid of it or not. The best thing to do is get them in and let them tell you about it and if you can't support what you're doing, then you ought to make a change. And therefore, parents have got to have some say so. Now we say we're the experts and I know we're the experts. But if we are, then why can't we convince the parents that we're doing a good job. And so if we're the experts we say we are, then we can prove to the parents what we are doing is correct. If we can't, we'd better look at ourselves. So to develop the climate means that everybody is involved and everybody is honest about their involve ment. There should be nothing to hide.

Q: Which leadership techniques did you use that you found to be success ful and which techniques were unsuccessful?

A: I am not dictatorial and I can't be dictatorial like Mr. Parr was. He knew that from the very beginning. The time that I watched him tell parents this is the way it's going to be and if you don't like it, then take your kids out of school. I can't offer it that way. That's dic tatorial and that's a style I can't operate in. Neither can I operate on wishy-washiness. THat means you don't know what you're doing and that you can't tell anybody what you are doing. I think the style has to be one that is a combination of sometines you have to say this is the way it has to be because it's best for all. It might not be best for your kid but it's best for all of them. And there have been some times when you'll have an individual that turns out what you're doing may not be the very, very best for that kid but it's the very, very best for every body else. Yet you somehow figure out a way to make it good for him too. My style again I guess would be being friendly and open. I mean open with whatever you're doing and open for suggestions. You also have to be open for criticism and open for willingness to make changes that need to be made. Sometimes we develop a regulation or policy and it doesn't matter whether it's good or not, we stick to it. Now that would not be my philosophy. My philosophy would be if you make a regulation or pol icy and you find it's not working, then by gosh give it up and get one that is working. Now if you're dictatorial then in most cases it's difficult to do that because you say I made it and I want you to do it. It doesn't matter whether it's good or bad. I'm thinking about a couple of people I know in administration that think it doesn't matter. One in particular who's administrative style is such that he is more inter ested in just administration than talking about how many kids are in the classroom, how many textbooks there are, what time the teachers arrive at school and whether or not their work is in on time. Those are num ber one priorities for certain people but they were never my number one priorities. They are important and they are priorities, but to me they have never been number one. To me, number one would be what is a teacher doing when she has done all that? I want to know if she comes in on time or if she doesn't. And I want to know what she is doing in the class room. Being on time or being late might not change what she does in the classroom. I'm getting off on something else now and I don't want to do that.

Q: What role did you play in public community relations?

A: The role in community relations is to have the parents in early and talk about what you expect. You don't let them guess, you tell them. That means that each year you have parents in and also have the teachers tell them what you have said you're going to be doing. And then you take any exceptions and work on them with the parents as honestly as you can. Sometimes you have to say to parents, yes this teacher is really that kind of person. It doesn't matter what I do, I'm not going to be able to change her. Yes, she does have some quirks about the way she operates, but that's the way she is and she's going to operate that way no matter what I can do. Kids do need some quirky type teachers once in a while. They need a variety of personalities and I'm saying that as an example. I think parents understand that teachers are people too. Som.etimes you do have to remind them of that. So in all, community relations is lots and lots of communication. There has to be lots of openness on the part of the parents. And you never take sides between teacher and parent. Let them resolve what's in the problem so all you have to do is get them together and chances are they are going to resolve it. And at times you will have to be there with them. You have to help both sides see the others but that's good. Rather than going in and jerking a kid out of the classroom because he doesn't get along with the teacher, have the parents in and let the teacher and parents resolve their problems with you as the referee. Ninety percent of the time they are going to re solve it.

Q: What do you think teachers expect principal's to be?

A: Somteimes I think teachers expect principals just to be their slaves. Sometimes they want you to do everything that they need to have done and you'll do it. And that's okay at times but that's not the way it really works. Teachers have said something has to be done about the kids runn ing in the hallway and I said fine, stand in the doorway and don't let them run. I think what teachers expect of you is to tell them how to do some things. They expect me to be the leader. I truly believe that they expect me to be the leader. Now that means they may try to manipulate you to get you to do their stuff and then they'll fuss that you are not being a good leader. At least not as good as you should be by their standards. A school can't really have but one leader. Just as there can't be twenty-five different philosophies. It can't be all the teach ers going in their own directions, doing whatever they want. I think the school is the reflection of the principal's personality, leadership style and all the other things that make up a good administrator. It has to be that. If you're doing a lousy job, it's going to be reflective. And it ought to be that way and you can't blame the teacher if things aren't going well. I think the teachers expect that of a principal. The school has to be a place that relects your good personality and lead ership styles. I also think that what teachers want and what they some times ask you for are two different things. When they ask you something about materials available for them, they won't care about anything else. They just want you to help them out.

Q: What techniques did you use to make teachers feel important?

A: I know one that comes to my mind right off. That is a pat on the back regularly. Not just when you're evaluating them but when you're in the hallway or wherever you are, say hey, I like that. When you see something they've done, leave them a little note. You have to say some thing encouraging to them. Do not wait until you do the evaluation. That's because during the evaluation or even follow-up observations you deal with the needs improvements. And teachers will hear those more often that they do about the good things. I think that is something you have to do on a daily basis. Make them feel important is number one. The one thing more important than that is to pick out individual kids that have done a good job and say something to them about how well they have done. Do this with the child by himself, in front of the teacher and in front of all the other kids. Say things like I see a great improve ment in you this year or you're really making it. Teachers are important and that's why every teacher should be on a committee of some kind. They have to feel like what they have to say is important. When they make recommendations, you really discuss them with the teachers. Discuss the new ideas and try to implement as many of those that you can. Teachers' infeed is important. Those are the two main techniques.

Q: How did you evaluate teachers?

A: I evaluate teachers informally and formally. I evaluate continuous ly through a variety of ways. You evaluate informally through a whole lot of body language. This happens when you think you are not. Your own body language plays a part in evaluating. When you suggest something to a teacher you are really evaluating her in the end. You evaluate a teacher when a parent comes in fussing and you feel the parent is right. It's a type of evaluation because you're going to follow up on that con versation with the parents by writing a letter to the teacher. But you won't always be down on the teacher. You'll make some suggestions on what you would like to see them do that would prevent that situation from happening again. There are always going to be some things that teachers will do that they aren't aware of it needing improvement. When parents fuss or kids or teachers, principals will see things they don't like on a daily basis, don't wait to try to change those. Do it as fast as you can.
Now formal evaluations are those informal type things that have ac cumulated and this time the teacher knows this if formal. The teachers have to know you're going to come in and observe them and that this time you're going to make or suggest some changes. I think in a formal eval uation you have to remind them of little talks you might have had. And when that happens it is definately formal. Both of those evaluations have to be done. You can't get by without them.

Q: What is your philosophy of education?

A: My philosophy of education has to answer these questions: what are our purposes for education? Why are we here? Why are parents willing to pay taxes to have their kids educated? And to answer those you have to say they have something in mind and that is what they will expect of us. Usually that something in mind is their individual child. Now that's not always true of what the state might say or what society might say be cause they are not doing a good job for us. Parents are looking upon us individually to do a good job for their kid. I don't think that you can break the state, society or parents away from one another. I do believe that all kids need an education. It's for society is what the state says but I think you really have to go to the individual. My philosophy is that we have to meet each individuals kids needs. That doesn't mean I have to provide individualized programs. That is possible for the teach er to provide that in group settings. I am talking about individual diff erences and meeting those differences. Sometimes we confuse an individ ualized program for meeting individual differences. I guess I have a philosophy that takes a child, wherever he is and meet all those differ ences for him. Whether individually or in large group seetings you can provide for him. I would say that parents expect this from us and that is why they send their child to us. We accept their child for whatever he is and wherever he is and provide for such.

Q: What is your personal leadership philosophy? What carried you through your years in Prince William County?

A: Some might say it's that I run the school my way. I feel that my philosophy is not dictatorial and it is not laisex-faire. It is between those two. My style can include both of those types at times. Sometimes it's okay to just let things go by rather than jumping right on them and creating even more of a fire. When you add fuel to the fire it burns stronger. At the same time I think you can get parents and teachers to do more for you by asking them to help. Asking for help does not mean that you can't lead. I feel you can lead by asking. Sometimes you won't agree with the others but that's okay because we are all educators and it's all business. Everybody has a right to their own opinions and my opinions may not be any more right than anyone elses. It's only right when I have done more work on it than they have. If I spent a lot of time on it and yet I can't convince them then I haven't really done my work. So I have to spend a lot of time on it so they look to me as a person who knows more about it than they do. If they feel you know more than they and they can get suggestions from you, they'll look to you as the leader. And I believe that's my philosophy.

Q: What does it take to be an effective principal?

A: Number one, and I'm going to say this as number one because I have priorities in this, is it takes time. That means you better be willing to give time and that means one hundren percent of your time. To be an effective leader can not be done on a part time basis. This means you arrive early and stay late when necessary. It's not so much the amount of time you put into it but the quality of time while you're there. So to be effective I think you've got to give it all that you have. There are times when it takes a smaller amount of time but it's been quality time. What I say next will probably get people upset with me. I don't drink coffee and I don't smoke so I don't waste that time during the day. I really believe that I have to stay on task all day. To be effective you have to stay on task just as we expect the kids to get on task. I feel the administrator has to be just that way - on task all the time. There are quality items that have to go into leadership to be effective. I think you have to be willing to listen rather than talk all the time. You have to be willing to give in some and be willing to accept the fact that youmight not be right all the time. You must be willing to make changes as necessary. I tell people that it's better to get on the cir cle and go all the way around rather than to stay put in just one spot.

Q: What pressures did you face as principal? Subsequently, how did you handle those pressures?

A: There hasn't been that many pressures. There has definately been frustration and there's been times when I couldn't deal with it as effec- tively as I would have liked. I think administrators put pressure on them selves. And those pressures are usually time constraints. One that everybody tells me is that pressure has nothing to do with doing a good job. The pressure has to do with trivial administrative things that don't mean a whole lot to the kids but they do mean a lot to people who are administrators. I'm talking about the pressures of getting something in on time or to have your work done all administratively. And there is the pressure of trying your best to solve a child's problem. Don't let the child's problem be a pressure. People above you may get cross at you but they'll be more upset with you if you don't resolve the kid's problem first. I think the people above you put the pressure on. If you're doing a good job with the teachers and with the students, then the higher ups may let you send in a report late. If you're not doing a good job then they're just waiting for that time that you don't send your reports on time. They're only on you like that when they think you're not doing a good job. For me the pressure I've experienced has always been from the central office. Anywhere except from the parents. I tolerate the pressure from the county and central office but I do not tolerate pressure from parents. If that happened, I'd do something about it. I don't believe there is pressure from the kids.

Q: If you had to do it again, what would you do to better prepare your self for the principalship?

A: I guess I'd do more reading more planning and more organization in terms of curriculum, dealing with individuals and dealing with the kids. The more you lear, the more you find out means the more you get to know. One thing I would like to have done differently is to have known more about LD kids, ED kids, EMR kids, average kids and gifted kids. I would want to be assured that my program is meeting all their needs. There fore, if I had to do it all over agin I'd spend more time doing problem analysis. That's knowing ahead of time what some individual needs were and trying to get it to work. You need to have many alternatives for yourself and for the teachers. If a teacher somes up and says this kid won't or I can't get him to do something, you have to have some other ways that might work to choose from. I will say that I never had all of as long a list that I could have.

Q: How did you handle teacher grievances, if you ever had any?

A: I've had teacher grievances. All of the grievances that I have had dealt with county policies. Take sick leave for example. The interpre tation of sick leave is difficult. You can interpret it one way while a teacher interprets another and you're not sure if central office will interpret it another way. I once had a teacher that was out for three because one of her friends was going to have a baby and she was the coach. I questioned whether that was personal leave and she grieved it because I wouldn't say it was personal leave. She felt since she had committed herself as a coach, it didn't matter when the baby was to be born and she has to be there. I stuck to my guns and said no. When I went to the Personnel Office and they supported my decision. So it's all a matter of interpretation. Grievance come around because or the many ways to inter pret rules and regulations. For me to interpret rules and regulations I have to know what they are. I wouldn't interpret one without making certain that I knew what it was or I had the support from the superinten dent all the way down to the Personnel Office. Most of the grievances I've had had to do in the area of sick leave.

Q: Did you ever fire a teacher?

A: Yes sir I fired a lot of them. There are many different ways to interpret firing. Two or three incidents come to my mind. The one I always remember first dealt with a teacher who was having some immoral activities with some of the parents. Some parents were aware of it and other parents had actually seen the kind of things that were going on in bars and other places with that one teacher. Do you or can you fire a teacher because of what she's doing in the community? I don't know for sure that you can and I never found that out. But I do know that it has an effect upon how she performs in the classroom with regards to the attitude of parents and kids. The parents' attitude was one of I don't want m.y kid in that classroom. You're always fighting that parent who doesn't want her kid in an immoral teacher's classroom. Just because she goes out and gets drunk at night and has affairs with men does that mean firing is appropriate? I took a chance one time and said to the teacher, you can't be effective in this building. Hardly any parents want their kids in your classroom and they will be fighting you and me both. The only thing that I can suggest for you is you want to be an effective teacher is to go someplace else and start anew. She was hon est enough with me and I was honest enough with her by giving examples of what the parents knew. She decided that leaving was the best thing she could do. Now that may not be firing but maybe cancelling out. I have had others that I wanted them to leave but they didn't. I once had to dismiss a teacher. I had to get all the necessary things together to do that. I've had to fire teachers for incompetence. There are three or four steps you have to follow to fire a teacher. If you fire a teacher for incompetence you first have to give them the benefit of the doubt to start with. By that you give them all the help that is possible. You've got to make suggestions that it can be done and you've got to give themtime to make the changes. You have to do that in writing and you've got to have witnesses. Getting rid of a teacher has to be done in a very professional manner. You don't want fighting between the two of you. But it must be known what is expected of the teacher. Then eventually if it isn't done, it's time to let the teacher go. It sounds simple but it's not. You have got to have all the backup and materials. You have to be able to show that you gave them help and even then they were not able to do their job. It has to be to the point that they were in capable of doing it and therefore, should not be teaching. It's even okay to get other opinions which I suggest you do. Get the opinions of the assistant principal or other administrators. When it happens that a teacher is not being effective, I think they must be dismissed. I've done it and I'd do it agin if I have to. I had to let a teacher go that I loved dearly. She was a great person but she had too many personal problems that she couldn't handle. She knew that and she cried on my shoulder every day asking for me to help her. But after you've helped so much you have to stop.

Q: Did you ever end up in court because of a teacher dismissal?

A: No, Ive never been to court for that but I have been to the point of going to hearings. At least to the point where the county went to hearings. I had a librarian recently that went through the last bit with his lawyers andmy lawyers but the panel found him to be incompetent. Those are things that we have to do as administrators and we have to be willing to do so. You should not have the viewpoint of just getting rid of somebody but because they are not capable of performing that which is expected of them.

Q: During your educational career what national and historical issues did you have an opportunity to deal with? How did you deal with them?

A: I guess I've dealt with two or three national issues. I've dealt with year-round school and overcrowdedness which is always a national issue. One time it was a really serious issue and I dealt with it by not giving parents options. For years and years the schools in this county were overcrowded. The only option was double shifts and those were not acceptable options for some people. We handled it by trying to figure out some other options. One option was to build schools but we didn't have the money for that. So you take what you do have and utilize it to the fullest. That's where I had some punitive dealings. I had to say to parents that there are other options other than double shifts. We can have school sopen for longer periods of time. Even when you say year-round there's other options than 45-15. I guess one of the things that I had the fortune to be involved with was looking at those options that are nationwide and coming back and saying to the school board that this is the most acceptable one and it just happens to be year-round. I was able to get the board to say that's what we want implemented. And I got to be involved in the implementation of that. I guess that would be the number one national issue that I had to deal with. Another one I guess was to be able to take a country like Panama or just be able to go to Panama and say here are some problems that you have in regards to your school system, especially the curriculum and scheduling. I was able to work with those educators and bring about changes that were similar to what we have. But the changes were effec tive for them also. I got to do that once and I thought it was an ex cellent opportunity.

Q: Were you involved with integration in schools? How did you deal with it?

A: Back in this county I like to think we had two school systems. We had all black and all white schools. Superintendent Stewart Battle came to me and we talked about the possibility of bringing some black teachers into the white schools. I remember he said to me I'd like for you to take one of those and see how it works in your community. Together he and I interviewed a couple of black teachers. I got one that I thought was fantastic. She came to an all white school and Annie, that was her name, was my best teacher. She was an excellent teacher and that is what opened it up for me. Because pretty soon I had two black teachers and then some black parents moved into what was an all white community. So instead of transporting those black children across the county to the all black school the superintendent asked me to take them into my school. It just happened without any furor. There wasn't any great policy change. The county just started taking black children to the white schools and evenutally it got to the point where the black schools were closed down. I was involved in the very beginning of that and I worked with it. I had a few parents that were concerned about a white child being in a black teacher's room since that had never happened before. But there reallywasn't a problem. We discussed it and I explained that the teacher was a fantastic person. They were used to getting a good education for their kids and they still would be. So in fact, they really didn't have any complaints. That wasn't really my idea but the superintendents. He wanted it done that way and he asked me to help him do it. I think that was a national interest. One time the issue was why were elemen tary schools doing a poor job in science when we had Sputnik up. When that arose we asked ourselve what could we do to bring about improvements. When I was at the elementary level Claude Dehaven came to me and asked if I would be interested in taking some time off and going nation- wide to find out what we were doing throughout the country in regards to middle schools. At that time all we hade was junior highs. So he let me go for half a year and visit all the middle schools to see what they were doing a good job of. I had a chance to look at that and I came back and made recommendations that we go from junior high to middle school. And we did. At that time there were also issues about curriculum, or ganization and team teaching. There were guidance issues such as having advisors. Those were issues that were dealt with in the sixties and even in the seventies and I was involved in the middle of all of it. Most of them were implemented at one time or another. Some had to be dropped or changed but basically we implemented those I was involved in. I was always asked to serve as a mediator which I did and it was very good experience.

Q: What procedures should be used before a person is selected to be come a principal?

A: There are two or three procedures that should be used. The first one is that the person ought to have an educational background. The pro cedure is to insure that he does have that. That includes all those classes required of a teacher and all those classes that are required of an administrator. He should even have taken the classes required of a supervisor. Next you must be successful as an administrator and you must have been successful as a teacher. Just because he is a successful teacher does not necessarily mean he will be a good administrator. I think there are skills an administrator must have that have to be assessed and determined. I feel that the person has to realize whether or not he has those skills. If he doesn't think he has those skills, then he ought not to apply for principal. First he has to understand what the skills are he needs to have. Many teachers do not know what those skills are that make a good administrator. You can get a Bachelor's in Administration and never have talked about the skills of an administrator. As an assessor there are at least six that head the list but I don't think that judgement is number one. You do have to have sound judgement, problem analysis capabilities, sensitivity, decisiveness and a goal in education itself. You have to be able to communicate both orally and in writing. Those are not in order of priority. It's too hard to do that. With assessment you cannot assess those skills without actually observing them. A person can write about it but not be able to perform it. I prefer to be in a real situation when assessing things. But sometimes that is not possible. Maybe we ought to have all administrators go through an intern ship. We don't do much of that but I would assume if it's a good intern ship in which there are a lot of assessments to make, one could really determine those skills.

Q: How did you utilize your assistant principal?

A: How I utilized and how I should have utilized assistant principals are two differnt things. I've done all those bad things with assistants such as assigning the things that I don't like to do or some thing that has the least influence upon the direction of the school. Counting text books doesn't have a lot of direction at least that's what I think. And I would assign my assistant's things that have very little direction. I've had a situation in which I assigned all the responsibilities that a principal has to an assistant principal. That meant sharing equally with them. I have some problems with that at times because you don't want too many different directions in which to pull. And when it comes to direc tion I don't want to give that up. I want to be the leader. If the assistant principal just happens to be going in the same direction that's great. And if that happens it's easier to give him more of your respon sibilities but you rotate them. You let him do one thing this year and the next year he has a different responsibility. You do that when you know a person is going to grow and become an administrator one day. Now if you don't have an assistant that doesn't aspire to be principal then I don't know you have to do that. Some assistants only want to take di rections and I've had that combination.

Q: As principal waht was your biggest concern?

A: My biggest concern was is a program that we're providing effective. Is that program meeting all the kids' needs and am I organized in such a way that that is happening? Am I ensuring that it can happen? Am I observing the facts. You have got to know what is happening at all times. That would be my major concern. It should be a concern about effectiveness.

Q: As a principal what was your biggest headache?

A: I don't have any headaches. If what I just said is not happening then that is the biggest headache and it will always be that. If it's not happening then part of the headache would be because of the teachers. Do the teachers know what is best for the kids? You have to live an amount of time where you have ineffectiveness. But then you can go by procedures to get rid of the ineffective teachers. Actually the biggest headache should be ineffective teachers. Buses not arriving on time or lunches that are not being ready on time are headaches also. There are many little things that can be headaches but they are not the major ones. Those are all normal problems that you will have and you should have those. I think you have to expect problems.

Q: What do you think about merit pay? Have you been involved with it?

A: I've been involved only to the point of looking at it and doing some studies on it. I've been on committees that have discussed it. I've al- ways looked at it in terms of those schools that have done it. I am one to back away from it for a moment because I'm not sure what merit pay is. To me it means you have a system that has senior teachers or lead teachers. That system pays for the lead teacher to teach others and it pays the aides that work under them. That to me is a type of merit pay. In my opinion that is a good system. Some might call that a career ladder but it has nothing to do with length of time. It deals with the ability to do. You can take a lead teacher and that lead teacher isone that we have assessed and other teachers have assessed. And we have found the person has the leadership ability to do an effective job. A lead teacher is one that can plan, organize, create and see to it that it is implemented. That person has to be one that can get a regular classroom teacher to implement is in a plain classroom. The lead teacher and other teachers have to be working together as a team. I believe that all those levels should be paid diff erently. A beginning teacher might be at the bottom because she has not had a chance to help someone else and has to have others helping her to do what is expected. I would support merit pay if it meant that a teacher is doing a great job. As such she should get more money. But then I'm not really sure if I would support it. I don't think that this idea is well organized and I don't think that it's been planned for far enough to be effective. I think this requires a lot of planning and lots of assess ments. It required paying people some good monies for those top positions.

Q: What do you consider to be the characteristics associated with effec tive schools?

A: There's a long, long list. That list would be too long but I'11 pick out three or four of the top things. I'm going to say you'll know an effective school as soon as you walk in the front door. And you'll know it from what you can observe going on. You can feel the warmth, friend liness, openness, firmness and fairness. You may have a school from a low social economic level but that doesn't make any difference in terms of perfectiveness. I think a school that has a low social economic level kids can be just as effective as one that has nothing but all giftedness. I think you can tell by just walking into the building. You should be able to see that the teachers are enjoying teaching, that the kids enjoy being there and you can see that the kids are learning. Ordinarily in such a school there would be little or no discipline problems. There has to be that atmosphere. You'll see lots of parents in the school and you'll see teachers who are utilizing those parents effectively. All talents are being used effectively. Those are the characteristics of an effective school that I would look for. I would not look for test scores. I would be involved with test scores only in terms of progress. Some times when you look at test scores compared with other schools', they might seem low and ineffective. But in reality they may be very effec tive. And that is when progress is being made. The one indicator that you've got to look at is where the kids have come from and where they have gone to. I think that will help determine what might be effective. I also think you'll find an effective school is one where you have lots of support from the parents.

Q: What was the toughest decision you ever had to make as principal? Why was it difficult?

A: I've not done this very often and I can't remember if I ever truly followed through on it. The toughest decision would always have been to permanently expell a child. To permanently expell a child is to say you can no longer come to this school for an education. The toughest deci sion for me will always be to totally exclude a kid from an education. I can't think of any ohters that would be more difficult. That decision is tip-top even when a child is a threat to the other children. To me that is a sign of defeat. Our main goal is to be effective. That means for all and not just a few. To have to expell a child means that I have not really looked at all the alternative for that child as we grew. Some how we failed. The reason I'm saying that is there are only four reasons for a kid to fail. One is the home environment has some effect, the school environment has some effect and the curriculum wasn't effective for that child and finally the people who are working with the child just aren't effective. And that puts alot on the school. If you start with a kid as a one-year-old or two-year-old, he didn't come to us as a kid who needs to be kicked out of school. Somehow he learned that and he either learned it in the home environment, the community environment or the school environment. You would be surprised at how much he learned in the school environment. I say that the majority of what a child learns is in the school. So it means that we became ineffective, some how and someplace along the way.

Q: Were you a manager of a building or an instructional leader?

A: I don't think that you can seperate thw two. By this I think you have to be able to be a good manager in order to be an effective instruc- tional leader. I think a person has got to be both. If something has to be managed well then there are some basic skills that you have to have. One of them is your organizational abilities and the other is a concept skill. That means you know what you are after. The last thing you need is the human skill of being able to bring it about. If you don't have all three of those then I don't think you can be a building manager or an instructional leader. Being a manager means you have to know what's he going to manage and how. I would take a person who is very well versed in all the instructional areas but if he can't bring about change in people, what good is he? I just don't think I would seperate the two.

Q: What, and you honestly were a very successful principal, made you a successful principal?

A: Well, it wasn't oral communication. That would be one of the areas that I had the most difficulty. I knew it and I admitted it ipenly to everybody so that they would be helpful to me. If I ask people what made me successful I believe they would say it was a human skill. Almost all tell me that. They tell me it means getting along with people. Now getting along with people has different connotations to me. It could mean that I get along with others because I give in to them. It could mean that I'm willing to hold their hands and do all that kind of stuff. Perhaps it means being a slave to everyone. Therefore, everyone likes me because I do all the work for them. There are a whole bunch of things that come to mind when I say I can get along with people.

Q: What is your key to success as a principal? What is it about R. Dean Kilby that made you, in the eyes of Prince William County, a success?

A: What do parents always sing to us about what they like the best? The answer is their kids and if you like the kids, the parents will be able to tell that and you actually get to be a part of them. You have to let the kids feel free with you. The kids have to be able to talk to you, come to you and tell you all about their problems. When these things happen, how can parents not let you be a part of their lives? If there was just one thing I could pick out it would have to be that. It doesn't have to be that I'm a good administrator or that I have a great role with everyone. I have to say I enjoyed the kids the most.

Q: What as you developed your principal career was your code of eth ics?

A: Number one as I mentioned earlier is the honesty. That is being honest with the parents and kids. When a kid comes down and tells me about a horrible thing a teacher has done, I'm not going to lie to that child and say you're wrong, she's an excellent teacher. I may say well you're right about that being a terrible thing to do and I really don't want her to do that. I may just say it like that. Now the teacher may say I didn't support her and I'd have to say no I didn't because I can't support things that are wrong. But I will support you in anything that you do that is correct. That is being honest and the same thing is true with parents. I will not support wrong doing and I let the teachers that from the very beginning. They may go out and do some things wrong and I won't support them. But that does not mean to tell everybody it's okay to do it even if I won't. Most times teachers will not consider that non-support. They know you will support them in anything they do as long as it is good and correct. A code of ethics would be to be hon est and up front with people. And part of being honest is being open. So I feel a code of ethics would be honesty, openness and friendliness. And you will have some pretty high expectations from the teachers and the kids. You have to have high expectations from teachers especially since teachers are good models. And the kids will be able to tell that. If you let a teacher come in late or let a teacher keep a sloppy home room, then the kids are going to expect that too. You cannot have two different standards for them. I have the same one as I have for the other. And I believe that is ethical.

Q: What about your personality that allowed you to be successful as a principal?

A: My personality is that I don't get mad easily. I think through what I'm going to say even before I get to a meeting. I have a pretty good idea about what I'm going to say before the meeting. Now I don't like going into a conference without knowing what we will be talking
about. So my personality is that I don't get too frustrated. I don't let things upset me to badly. However, I don't want to put things off until tomorrow and keep putting it off. If there's a problem in between two teacher then I want to have those teachers in immediately and get the problem resolved. I don't want to say maybe it will resolve itself. I think the quicker you can go that the less chance you will have of the problem ballooning and the gossiping running wild. I guess I just don't let things bother me that much. I don't even let central office bother me that much. If they're upset with me I feel that's okay because I am only human and so are they. They make mistakes once in a while too. And you have to remember it's okay to make a mistake now and then. It's just not okay to leave a problem undone.

Q: What advice would you give to a person who is considering an admin istrative career?

A: My advice would be do not go into administration unless you're will ing to give one hundred percent. You can not be inconsiderate even when you might have twenty-five other problems you've got to deal with. So if you've got two or three jobs to take care of don't do them until you can give it everything that you have. That would be number one. If you have an axe to gring with the county you had better not come into administration. If you feel that county is doing a horrible job then don't enter into administration because you'11 go in with an attitude. If you go into administration then you have to follow the directions that are being given one hundren percent. If the school board or the super intendent tells you to do something that is totally opposite of your be liefs, you do it anyway. My advice would be to know all those things that are expected of you and agree to them whether you believe them or not. I also want to say that you have to be sure you can work effec tively with teachers. You m.ust be absolutely sure that you can. If you're going to make changes make the teachers understand first that the changes are for the kids and not for the teachers.

Q: Would you enter administration on a principal's level again if you had to do it all over?

A: If I had to do it all over again I sure would. I wouldn't change it for anything if I had to start over again. There would be no ques tion in my mind whether I would do the same things as I did before. I don't regret one bit. It was the best educational experience and the best career I could have chosen.

Q: What changes would you make in the organizational set up of admin istration responsibilities if you would come back? Have you had an opportunity to be involved with central office?

A: I basically like the organizational structure that has lots of line and staff. Just like we basically have a line and staff organization. There has to be lots of support and that support rests upon the building administrator. He has to have the support to handle things on his own. And that is true espcecially in a big county like Prince William. A small county might be different. In a large county I would want the building principal to almost have total responsibility under the guide lines of established school board policies. I would support local authority of an administrator which is what you call school based manage ment. I really do support that. But I would have to build some things into that in terms of following regulations and policies. But this can not be to the point that it ties your hand. You have to give the prin cipal all the support and flexibility that you can. Here is where I might say something that would be contrary to good organizational skills and philosophy. I think that we waste lots of monies on duplication of efforts. Most of that duplication happens to be in the administration. It goes like so, the superintendent tells the assistant superintendent who tells the director who tells the supervisor who finally tells the principal. That is what I call duplication of efforts and it it some thing I do not believe in. There are some ways to handle that. Let's take the cafeteria for example. If there is a problem there in the cafe teria, who handles it? The principal does. If the cook is doing a hor rible job and putting out cold food, who do people call upon to fix it? The principal, of course. If I have to be responsible for it then I want the authority to handle it on my own. You don't want to pay someone for their title. I wouldn't want to pay a food supervisor if he can't handle food supervisory problems. So if I have to handle it, I want total authority to do just that.

Q: In terms of suggestions to universities to better prepare administra tive candidates what recommendations would you make?

A: I would make lots of recommendations. There are two or three major ones that I feel should be dealt with. One is to assure that the univer- sities are teaching all of the skills that make up a good administrator. Universities should be sure that nobody gets out into administration with out knowing what they are and probably even assessing them to the point that they've all been assessed and know their strengths and weaknesses in administrative skills. Once those assessments have been made then there should be classes that help overcome those weaknesses that were found. I believe that to be number one. Number two would probably be to require a good internship program. These programs would not be just for credit. They have to be well supervised. The person who needs that internship should actually have had the opportunity to do some things in administra tion. Things that they can say, yes I did that. I may have has some pro blems and here's how I solved them. I don't know that we actually do that but I'd like to see that happen. That would be my two major recommenda tions for universities.

Q: Did you feel that central office policies prevented you from accom plishing goals that you felt you could have attained otherwise?

A: No. School board policies are usually broad enough that I could interpret the way I want to and pretty much do what I wanted. Now I'm sure if I had gone out on a limb and wanted to do something radical, they would have prevented me from doing that. I always thought that the school board was interested basically in the things that I was. The school board never fought about kids. They usually fought about their own administra tive type things that was not important. But they never fight about what is good for the kids. I know some people will disagree with me on that but the policies I read were broad enough for an administrator. I was pretty much able to do what I wanted in terms of what's good for the kids.

Q: What consumed the majority of your time as principal? How did you spend the majority of your day?

A: I will give you an example of a day that I think has to happen to all principals. The principal needs to arrive early and I think he needs to have a plan for the day. By arriving early he can get rid of all the desk materials he has. From then he won't have anything on his desk for the actual beginning of the school day. Then he should spend some time with any extra problems. He must finish this by 8:30AM. From then on I think all principals ought to devote time to the kids, parents and the teachers. That means coming in and being there with them, talking with them and seeing to it that the day goes by with no problems. I also think that a principal ought to spend a portion of the day say in the mid-morn ing, with kids and teachers in the classrooms. And I think you ought to spend mid-day back again in an informal setting with teachers and kids. Part of the afternoon should should be spent in a whole new situation but once again back with the teachers and kids. From 3:00PM on is the time you can be informal with teachers and parents. Actually from 3:00 on should be for the teachers alone. Once the teachers and parents are gone you still have office work to do for the next day's game. Then end of the day takes place after all that is done. I feel that most of the day should be consumed by kids and teachers. This does not have to be doing observations. Just get out there and enjoy the teachers and kids together. These are very pleasant situations and that is a typical day for me.

Q: What would you like to have spent more time on but other responsi bilities prevented you from doing so?

A: I would like to have spent more time observing in the classroom with the kids. Whenever you are there in the classroom someone is always try- ing to pull you out of there. The pull you out for the little things that seem especially little to you as an administrator. There are a lot of things that can keep you from doing what you want. There is one thing that we do enough of all the time and that is communicating with parents. It takes time to communicate with parents and there are three ways to do that. One is on the phone and one is to have small meetings. These will be going on at least once a week and definately once a month. Then there is lots and lost of written notes. There are times when you won't get done because there just wasn't enough time.

Q: Can you discuss the differences and likenesses in your variety of jobs? What skills did you use as an elementary school principal that were different or similar to those you used in central office?

A: Elementary principal skills are different from those used at the middle school. And those that are used at elementary and middle schools are differnt from those used in central office. The complexity of the skills at an elementary level are not as great as elsewhere. All skills are important. To be able to help a teacher who can't understand why a kid can't work in class is just as important at a different level. You have to communicate with teachers and have options for them when they are having a hard time. At the elementary level it's the skills that help the kids that are really important. At the middle school level the area that I say is most challenging and rewarding would be that. I think the middle school is most challenging because that is the time that kids need to have good administrators and good teachers. Now when I say good that is in terms of understanding needs, understanding them and having compassion for those kids at that age. I do feel it's the most challenging because it is never the same in one day. At the elementary level kids conform to what you do. At the middle school level the kids don't. And it's not meant for the kids to have to conform. Since they are not going to conform and understand, I think that causes complexity. It's a pretty complex situation and I think that you have to have that kind of understanding. Central office has a temperance that I think you have a tendancy to get away from the concepts of kids and they roll into just being plain administrative things. There's the budget and some programming but it is usually only realistic programming. Central office is programming for work offices and not for individuals. There is a broad expective at the central office and I guess it can be as complex as both the others.

Q: You are one of two living educators to have a school named after him in Prince William County. What are your feelings about this honor?

A: I feel that it is an honor but sometimes it's very difficult. I think that having a school named after you means there are certain expec- tations required of you. And you may feel like you haven't lived up to those expectations. And you are no more than anyone else. You're just human like them. You have the same kinds of downfalls and ups and downs like everybody else has. So it makes it pretty difficult at times be cause they expect more of you. In letting them name a school after you can cause problems for you and you will have to think about those. It is an honor but you don't get honors without some strings attached. And there are a lot of strings attached.

Q: What are your feelings about year-round schools?

A: I never gave up my membership in year-round schools until just recently. I feel it's a good alternative. In fact it's an excellent alternative for certain situations. It has lots of advantages that have never been explored. Some of the advantages have been explored and some haven't. Some have been utilized while others haven't. I guess if I could pick I would like to see it implemented more. I would like to see it be a good viable al ternative for lots of systems. I don't think it is necessary to spend all kinds of money on trailers because of overcrowdedness. I believe that if you spend money on overcrowdedness that means that you're paying money on ineffectiveness. That I feel is inappropriate. I think that I can show that year-round school in terms of education is as good or maybe better than the regular class. What comes to mind is that most students can't plan for 180 days in advance. But those same students might be able to plan for 45 days. Most students ar elike new stalks. Kids committ themselves and then find out that they can't live up to the committment. Therefore, they need new commitments every 45 days. Kids who had a horr ible time last time don't have to wait until the next year to make new committments. I think year-round schools is a good situation. We just never used all or our administrative skills to bring about all the things we know can happen to make year-round school work out.

Q: Our research point to the facts that excellent schools have admini strators who are actively involved in leadership for educational expectations. Whatstrategies did you use as the goal setter? What consumed the majority of your time as principal? How did you spend the majority of your day?

Q: What would you like to have spent more time on but other responsi bilities prevented you from doing so?

Q: You are one of two living educators to have a school named after him in Prince William County. What are your feelings about this honor?

Q: What are your feelings about year-round schools?

Q: Our research point to the facts that excellent schools have admini strators who are actively involved in leadership for educational expectations. Whatstrategies did you use as the goal setter?

A: I do believe that the leader has to be the goal setter. I think he has to be the one that gives direction. There can only be one direction rather than everybody pulling in opposite directions. I think effective principals have a good concept of what is expected and he knows exactly what it is he wants to accomplish. The leader has to be able to pull that from others and he can't hesitate bringing that about. If he doesn't know how then he finds out. He has to go out and find out whether through reading or observations of others, he must find out. He doesn't know how he will do it and he won't mind saying that I am willing to go find it. He doesn't play it off and he doesn't make excuses. To become effective is to have a goal, know exactly what you want to accomplish and know what it takes to accomplish that. And that is in terms of teachers, materials, in terms of administrative skills that he has to utilize. If the princi pal can't focus then he won't be able to accomplish anything.

Q: Would you discuss the five most pleasant principalship activities and five of the least pleasant?

A: The five most pleasant activities, let's see. I'm not going to pri oritize them. The most pleasant principalship activities are to be able to sit down and create for individual kids and individual teachers. Any way to help kids is the type of activity I'm talking about. At one time it used to be listening centers, learning centers, science corners and any of those learning activiries that you can create. That you create them would be a pleasant activity. Another one that would be as equal in value and set priorities on it, would be an activity that recognizes the outstanding kids or things that kids have done. You are able to give them a pat on the back and a hug and send them on their way because they've done an excellent job. I guess one of the things that I like doing is organ izing kids into life situations. At one time we used to call it student organizations which is where you let kids simulate situations as an activ ity. You put the kids in and see how well they can perform. As an ex ample have teacher's day but let the kids take over the school instead of the teachers. That was a good activity and I really loved it. Another activity that I liked is providing activities beyond the normal expected of a school day. Now whether it be athletics and I'd be upset if it was the only one, but activities where kids stay after school and do all kinds of things. There is some giftedness beyond the talents rather than just giftedness and to be able to take kids' talents and effectively use them to perform say in music or art, and be able to display those talents and have the whole school proud of the fact that here are some kids that did a fantastic job. Unpleasantness I can list those right off. One is to have to fire a teacher. Another is having to call a kid in and have to fuss at him for things he hasn't done well. Then after working with him and still having to expell or suspend him is always unpleasant. I guess unplea sant activity is not being able to do something that you like to do is not possible because a bunch of them up there or the school board says no to a situation which you know would be a great help to the community or kids. I think that is kind of frustrating. Let's say that kids are all excited about having something added to the playground or excited about building something for the school but then there's a policy or re gulation that states you can't do it. Another one that is always bad is seeing programs that are ineffective. Say for example you have a good health program in the school but it's not well planned so the teachers don't teach it effectively. We don't teach courtesy and we don't do some things that deal with effective getting along with one another or any of those kind of things. Seeing that not happen and not being able to do much about it are unpleasant.

Q: What were the characteristics of the superintendent that you found to be most effective?

A: First of all in self, sell-informed in all areas, both administration and curriculum. Number two a human skill that knows how to bring about changes without causing conflicts and number three is one who is well or ganized and knows how to go about getting things done because he's so well organized himself. We've all had them. Those three are major character istics.

Q: Would you describe the characteristics of the most effective assis tant principal you had?

A: Assistant principals that are effective, I guess are those who are willing to learn and they say I'd like to be a principal someday. Whoever has administrative aspirations and who is willing to learn everything they can and asks lots and lots of questions as to why you're doing things the way you are are the effective types. You ask them from a point of learning rather than questioning it in terms of disagreeing. I had an assistant that did very well with written skills and was able to communicate well. He was someone to do all the writing and editing and seeing that the school itself was done. I've had people who have both oral and written commun ication skills. I've had people who use good judgement and good common sense. They didn't go get excited right off but took their time and came in and sat down and had a chance to talk. These people came right to the point when the talked about things and they were able to distinguish emer gency situations from those that were things that could be delayed.

Q: What do you consider to be the most pressing issues facing educators in the next decade?

A: You may say it's overcrowdedness but I don't think that. I don't think that is really a major issue. Yes it is an issue and will have to be faced but it can wait as it is not a major one. I think that if we look back at our own society and the kind of changes that have taken place over the last twenty years and if we look at how effective you've been, we'll find that we have not been that effective. And when I say that it's really more than conduct. I think that schools are reflections of the community. I think schools are reflections of society. I think society is changing to some extent and it wouldn't surpirse me that even reading the bible in the classroom might pass. I remember it didn't even have a prayer to be gin with. I t might even be acceptable by a majority or people. It might even be acceptable. When I say that it means that there is more of a christian atmosphere in the public schools. I am not talking about christian atmospher in terms of believing in being a Protestant or Catholic or any other religion. I'm talking about the characteristics that are involved. That means alot of love and openness. I think that communities demand that of us. We have to be more open with them and include them in our schools more than we ever had before. I don't know if that's an issue now but I think it will be one. I think we've tried everyging and gone around in circles and circles and circles and come back to the same thing. You don't learn anything the first time around so you go and try it again. You've
been through that at some time or another. The kids went throug it in the 60's and 70's talking about kids rights and all those kind of things. And that was okay except they tried to decide what was good rather then the parents deciding. I think iffs time that adults decided what is good. I think the big issue is not letting the kids decide what they want to learn but letting the adults decide. I also think that it may be the schools are not going to face the fact that they have to listen to the parents. And I believe the parents will tell us. They are going to be unhappy unless they get a chance to tell us what they want their schools to look like. I think that you're always seeing somebody. The big issue is how are you going to include parents.

Q: Why did you choose retirement when you did?

A: I retired when I did because it was an opportunity to do what I really like to do anyway. I'm not ready for retirement. At least not to retire and sit at home. I didn't retire for that reason, I retired to go to work. To retire and sit at home is not something I would havedone. I retired to create a school environment that gives an option to parents, like this one here. I f parents don't like pblic schools, they can come here. We have three things going on in this school. One, we have a program for infants through four year. You might call it preschool program and that is much more than daycare. Daycare means I just take care of your kids when yougo to work. Well I don't believe in that. I believe that if I'm going to have those kids I ought to have something for them that's as good or better than if the parents had them at home. So that's the preschool program. It's well planned and organized and certainly well though out for development. And we have kindergarten through eighth grade right now. Do you want a christian environment? Do you want low pupil-teacher ratios? Do you want high academic standards? Those are the three options we have for parents. I don't believe people would put their kids with you if you lack those three things. So I haven't really retired. I've just changed jobs. I do plan on retiring eventually.

Q: What have I not asked you that I should have asked you? What can you tell me that we should have discussed but I have not asked?

A: Let me ask you a few things and you see if you think you've asked me them. Have you asked me about administrative human skills? Have you asked me how you bring about changes without causing conflicts? How does a person who wants to change a school do so without having everybody up set? If you want to implement a new program, how do you implement it? What is the most effective way to implement a new program? In order to meet the kids' needs? I don't think you've asked me that. Does a person need to be effective in all the concept of curriculum? Is it necessary? If not, how do you deal with that as an administrator? How do you deal with the curriculum if you're not effective and not well versed in all areas? I don't think you have to deal with that. You have asked me a lot of organizationa things such as how do you organize, how do you im plement and how do you get done. I believe you have asked me all those. In responding to your questions Mr. Kilby in as far as how do you make changes in a program, I guess that kind of ties into leadership per sonality and characteristics. I would like to know how you effect change in a program without causing conflict. If-you take a system and I'm thinking about a good assessment question that you had asked, one that has to do wtih why test socres are low. If you'll think about what happened in that situation which two people possibly resisted change. What could or rather what should the system have done in that situation to have kept those from resisting a new textbook? I think it's up to the administrators to ensure that when you implement a new pro gram or adopt a new textbook there's a whole list of things that have to take place before that can happen. One of the things that has to be done is to establish what is is you want done before you adopt it. Everybody has got to agree to what is is and then you go out and get it done to fit the way you want it to. You can try it the other way around. That is to go out and adopt the new textbook and then try to come back and implement that in terms of everybody has to do it. You're going to get some resis tance from that way. It's like waiting until a kid misbehave before you try to set up a good preventive discipline system. If you have a good preventive system, you won't have real discipline problems. So you pre vent the problems from happening rather than waiting for them to happen. I also think the same is true with change. Change has to be brought about but the people who are going to implement is not by someone who isn't. Sometimes change is brough about by a superintendent who will say this will be change and this will be done. Do you think it will be done? The chances are it won't be. The people who have to make the change are those who have to implement and so they should make the decision. The super intendent has to be the leader that brings them seeing the change needs to be made. The teachers recommend that the change be made and they will implement thae change. If you don't have that skill you will not be able to bring about change. I think that is an administrative skill that is required and I think there's some good administrators that can do that. Most of the administrators need to have their ego built a little bit and so they can say I brought that change about. Teachers feel we didn't like what was going on and therefore our principal has to go out and make those changes. It's good administrative skills when the changes that are brought about arethe ones the principal wanted. That is how I see the human skill of getting one that can bring about changes. But you know we don't always do that. We usually say you will do it and maybe that's okay but sometimes it might not get done. I know that people who say it will be done are those who are going to do it. I don't want to be the one that does it though, I want the teachers to do it.

Q: Mr. Kilby I do appreciate your time and efforts. That has wrapped up all the questions I have. Thank you.